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hot trans

Electric Blue auto convertions
When I do an auto trans, I use a AC condenser for a cooler, usually 17X15 inched, or around that. a tube type 2 row, and a large 12 volt electric fan to cool the condenser oil to the trans
This keep the temp down, an add on trans cooler wont do the job at all, way to small ..in a normal ICE system the trans is cooled by the radiator, water in that can be as high as 200 degs. so the trans fluid is that hot to, so is the trans body.
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Re: hot trans

Cor van de Water
Hi Wayne,

Thanks for the answers.

I am not concerned about the heat damaging the transmission,
I am concerned about losing so much power while I rev the motor
in a normal range. I can experiment with keeping the car in
[D] (Drive) and even [O] (Overdrive) gears which I did only use
in the very beginning until I calculated that the motor was
being lugged all the time, so I started using lower gears and
higher RPM to keep the motor happier (and give me quicker
acceleration because the limited power in this truck really
asks for a little more Oomph, that is why I am switching my
automatic to get more torque at low speeds. I am still learning
how to drive this electric automatic. I think the best that
could happen is if I find out how to get it to "kick down"
when I push the accelerator all the way, because now it will
stay in high (at least 2nd gear) when I am already rolling
and going for the inclined onramp to the freeway. If I do not
manually force the transmission in first gear, then I will not
have power to accelerate the rather steep onramp, which means
that I arrive at the merge point of the freeway at 20 MPH
often with an annoyed driver behind me. In first gear I am
able to continue to accelerate, even not as fast as I would like
but at least arrive at the merging point at a more acceptable
35 MPH or so, then quickly switch to higher gear to avoid that
the controller cuts the juice due to reaching redline limit
(yes, there are good sides to a professional installation).

The cooler in this conversion is mounted immediately (first)
behind the plastic grille though the size is only 4 x 10"
but since even running the transmission at high RPM for 15 mins
does not bring the temp as high as it gets on an ICE version
there should be no problem with this small cooler. I estimate
that the transmission was about 70 deg C (approx 160F) after
the run yesterday.
Adding a larger cooler might keep the transmission at lower
temp but does nothing to avoid the power draw, so I will do
some experiments with higher gear once on the freeway.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Electric Blue auto convertions
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 10:27 AM
To: ev
Subject: [EVDL] hot trans

When I do an auto trans, I use a AC condenser for a cooler, usually
17X15 inched, or around that. a tube type 2 row, and a large 12 volt
electric fan to cool the condenser oil to the trans This keep the temp
down, an add on trans cooler wont do the job at all, way to small ..in a
normal ICE system the trans is cooled by the radiator, water in that can
be as high as 200 degs. so the trans fluid is that hot to, so is the
trans body.
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Re: hot trans

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by Electric Blue auto convertions

On 23 Jun 2012, at 18:26, Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:

> When I do an auto trans, I use a AC condenser for a cooler, usually 17X15 inched, or around that. a tube type 2 row, and a large 12 volt electric fan to cool the condenser oil to the trans
> This keep the temp down, an add on trans cooler wont do the job at all, way to small ..in a normal ICE system the trans is cooled by the radiator, water in that can be as high as 200 degs. so the trans fluid is that hot to, so is the trans body.
>

Why bother?  Just use a manual  transmission (clutch preferred but it works without it) and save all the hassle <and> make it considerably more efficient.  Better acceleration, top speed and hill climbing too if you're locking your auto in one gear.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

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|
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Re: hot trans

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by Electric Blue auto convertions
Driving with a automatic that is set up correctly becomes a pleasure to
drive vs the manual.  In my daily drive, I may have to stop on a long steep
hill with vehicles in front and back of me.  I will stay about 30 feet from
the vehicle in front of me.  The vehicle in back of me may be very close and
may have a problem if I do not correctly re-lease the brake at the right
time I press on the accelerator.

To do this procedure correctly, I have to hold the vehicle with the brake
and press the accelerator until the motor ampere reads about 300 amps.  This
is not good to do this, because the motor is at stall at this point which
prevents the EV from rolling back. The overall gear ratio is at about 19:1
in 1st gear to be able to accomplish this procedure.

Using the automatic which has a large 12 inch torque converter with a low
rpm lock up at 1700 rpm at 1:1 ratio and a 1:8 ratio at 300 rpm, will hold
the EV on this steep hill with no brakes apply.  I use a idle control switch
which adds additional resistance to the accelerator POT which allows a
smooth run up of the motor to 300 rpm.

Instead of holding the EV on a hill at 300 motor ampere and may surge to 600
and stalling while trying to roll, it now holds at 50 to 100 motor ampere
with the automatic.

During this daily run, the EV actually uses 0.5 ampere hour less per mile
than it did with the manual.

It is also best to match the lock up rpm to the sweet spot of a motor or of
a engine.  Engines have a sweet spot in the range of 4000 to 5000 rpm.  My
WarP-11 and GE-11 motor has the sweet spot at 1800 rpm.  This is where you
want to match your shift points to maintain the motor ampere and torque at a
same constant.

You therefore want the torque converter lock up as close to the sweet spot
rpm of the motor which in my case is 1800 rpm.  Starting out, the auto
transmission is in 1st up to 1800 rpm and the motor ampere is held at 200
amps.  The overall gear ratio varies from 29:1 at 300 rpm to 16:1 to 1800
rpm.

Shifting to 2nd at 1800 rpm, the transition is so smooth, that you do not
notice the gear shifting.  The motor ampere is still at 200 amps and the
overall gear ratio varies from 16:1 to 10:1 while the speed increases to 26
mph which is most of my city driving.

For the very first time, I was able to shift to 3rd gear at the sweet spot
of 1800 rpm with the overall gear ratio varying from 10:1 to 5.57:1 and was
able to run up to 45-50 mph and still have the motor ampere at 200 amps
while slowly acceleration.  When the EV was up to a steady speed of 45 to 50
mph, the motor ampere actually drop to about 150 motor amps.

Note:  Try the direct drive automatic pump shaft that eliminated the torque
converter.  This is ok for drag racing, but you will not get out of a
parking spot without smashing up the vehicles in front and rear of you.  The
transmission oil pump first has to come up rpm to lock on and then BAM, the
EV may actually jump a bit.

Roland








----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin WINLOW" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] hot trans


>
> On 23 Jun 2012, at 18:26, Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
>
> > When I do an auto trans, I use a AC condenser for a cooler, usually
> > 17X15 inched, or around that. a tube type 2 row, and a large 12 volt
> > electric fan to cool the condenser oil to the trans
> > This keep the temp down, an add on trans cooler wont do the job at all,
> > way to small ..in a normal ICE system the trans is cooled by the
> > radiator, water in that can be as high as 200 degs. so the trans fluid
> > is that hot to, so is the trans body.
> >
>
> Why bother?  Just use a manual  transmission (clutch preferred but it
> works without it) and save all the hassle <and> make it considerably more
> efficient.  Better acceleration, top speed and hill climbing too if you're
> locking your auto in one gear.
>
> Regards, Martin Winlow
> Herts, UK
> http://www.evalbum.com/2092
> www.winlow.co.uk
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>

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Re: hot trans

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by martinwinlow
On 6/24/2012 3:06 AM, Martin WINLOW wrote:
> Why bother?  Just use a manual  transmission (clutch preferred but it works without it) and save all the hassle<and>  make it considerably more efficient.  Better acceleration, top speed and hill climbing too if you're locking your auto in one gear.

Wayne can answer for himself; but the usual reasons I hear are:

1. The donor car I want to use has an automatic.
2. I don't like stick shifts.

--
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls
and looks like work. -- Thomas A. Edison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

_______________________________________________
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|
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Re: hot trans

Dennis Miles
In reply to this post by Roland Wiench
I admit to not trying it yet but the web page of "EV Glide" explains
several modifications they make to the classic "Power Glide Automatic" such
as manual control of gear selection exclusively, no torque converter,
external electric pump for hydraulic pressure so no lurching, no tail
extension for more compact unit. note that these modifications can be made
by almost any transmission shop as they are all over the counter retail
modifications and as such are not exclusive, just convenient. (I personally
think they like their own work too much and it is overpriced on their web
site but that is just my opinion, they have obviously solved all the
problems neatly and that is worth any price you care to pay.)

Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*   (863)944-9913 (call noon to midnight Eastern time)
*[hidden email]*
*+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
*Offering a 12 day class July 9 to 21, 2012 in Central Florida. more info
on Web; WWW.ElectricVehicleTechnicalinstitute.COM<http://www.electricvehicletechnicalinstitute.com/>
*
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Roland Wiench <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Driving with a automatic that is set up correctly becomes a pleasure to
> drive vs the manual.  In my daily drive, I may have to stop on a long steep
> hill with vehicles in front and back of me.  I will stay about 30 feet from
> the vehicle in front of me.  The vehicle in back of me may be very close
> and
> may have a problem if I do not correctly re-lease the brake at the right
> time I press on the accelerator.
>
> To do this procedure correctly, I have to hold the vehicle with the brake
> and press the accelerator until the motor ampere reads about 300 amps.
>  This
> is not good to do this, because the motor is at stall at this point which
> prevents the EV from rolling back. The overall gear ratio is at about 19:1
> in 1st gear to be able to accomplish this procedure.
>
> Using the automatic which has a large 12 inch torque converter with a low
> rpm lock up at 1700 rpm at 1:1 ratio and a 1:8 ratio at 300 rpm, will hold
> the EV on this steep hill with no brakes apply.  I use a idle control
> switch
> which adds additional resistance to the accelerator POT which allows a
> smooth run up of the motor to 300 rpm.
>
> Instead of holding the EV on a hill at 300 motor ampere and may surge to
> 600
> and stalling while trying to roll, it now holds at 50 to 100 motor ampere
> with the automatic.
>
> During this daily run, the EV actually uses 0.5 ampere hour less per mile
> than it did with the manual.
>
> It is also best to match the lock up rpm to the sweet spot of a motor or of
> a engine.  Engines have a sweet spot in the range of 4000 to 5000 rpm.  My
> WarP-11 and GE-11 motor has the sweet spot at 1800 rpm.  This is where you
> want to match your shift points to maintain the motor ampere and torque at
> a
> same constant.
>
> You therefore want the torque converter lock up as close to the sweet spot
> rpm of the motor which in my case is 1800 rpm.  Starting out, the auto
> transmission is in 1st up to 1800 rpm and the motor ampere is held at 200
> amps.  The overall gear ratio varies from 29:1 at 300 rpm to 16:1 to 1800
> rpm.
>
> Shifting to 2nd at 1800 rpm, the transition is so smooth, that you do not
> notice the gear shifting.  The motor ampere is still at 200 amps and the
> overall gear ratio varies from 16:1 to 10:1 while the speed increases to 26
> mph which is most of my city driving.
>
> For the very first time, I was able to shift to 3rd gear at the sweet spot
> of 1800 rpm with the overall gear ratio varying from 10:1 to 5.57:1 and was
> able to run up to 45-50 mph and still have the motor ampere at 200 amps
> while slowly acceleration.  When the EV was up to a steady speed of 45 to
> 50
> mph, the motor ampere actually drop to about 150 motor amps.
>
> Note:  Try the direct drive automatic pump shaft that eliminated the torque
> converter.  This is ok for drag racing, but you will not get out of a
> parking spot without smashing up the vehicles in front and rear of you.
>  The
> transmission oil pump first has to come up rpm to lock on and then BAM, the
> EV may actually jump a bit.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin WINLOW" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 2:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] hot trans
>
>
> >
> > On 23 Jun 2012, at 18:26, Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
> >
> > > When I do an auto trans, I use a AC condenser for a cooler, usually
> > > 17X15 inched, or around that. a tube type 2 row, and a large 12 volt
> > > electric fan to cool the condenser oil to the trans
> > > This keep the temp down, an add on trans cooler wont do the job at all,
> > > way to small ..in a normal ICE system the trans is cooled by the
> > > radiator, water in that can be as high as 200 degs. so the trans fluid
> > > is that hot to, so is the trans body.
> > >
> >
> > Why bother?  Just use a manual  transmission (clutch preferred but it
> > works without it) and save all the hassle <and> make it considerably more
> > efficient.  Better acceleration, top speed and hill climbing too if
> you're
> > locking your auto in one gear.
> >
> > Regards, Martin Winlow
> > Herts, UK
> > http://www.evalbum.com/2092
> > www.winlow.co.uk
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20120624/834b3421/attachment.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> > | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> > |
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



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|
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Re: hot trans

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by Electric Blue auto convertions
Hello Dennis,

I ask about using the Power Glide modified by tci.com, but for my EV weight,
they recommended using a GM TH-400 modified to a only shift mode which
requires no vacuum modulator, governor and no kick down cable.

The Power Glide is ok for a light weight vehicle where it only has two
speeds which is a 1.76:1 1st gear and a 1.0:1 2nd gear.  The overall ratio
without the torque converter would only be 1.76:1 x 5.57 = 9.8:1 which is
the same as 2nd gear in my TH-400.

A small torque converter (less than 12 inch diameter) has a too high stall
speed, where the 12 inch torque converter has a lower stall speed and can
start moving a vehicle at 300 rpm.

The Power Glide does have a access port where you can plug in a transmission
oil pump which can pre-pump the oil pressure up to at least 80 psi which is
needed to start moving which can be use without a torque converter for soft
starts.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Miles" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] hot trans


> I admit to not trying it yet but the web page of "EV Glide" explains
> several modifications they make to the classic "Power Glide Automatic"
> such
> as manual control of gear selection exclusively, no torque converter,
> external electric pump for hydraulic pressure so no lurching, no tail
> extension for more compact unit. note that these modifications can be made
> by almost any transmission shop as they are all over the counter retail
> modifications and as such are not exclusive, just convenient. (I
> personally
> think they like their own work too much and it is overpriced on their web
> site but that is just my opinion, they have obviously solved all the
> problems neatly and that is worth any price you care to pay.)
>
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles*   (863)944-9913 (call noon to midnight Eastern time)
> *[hidden email]*
> *+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
> *Offering a 12 day class July 9 to 21, 2012 in Central Florida. more info
> on Web;
> WWW.ElectricVehicleTechnicalinstitute.COM<http://www.electricvehicletechnicalinstitute.com/>
> *
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Roland Wiench <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Driving with a automatic that is set up correctly becomes a pleasure to
> > drive vs the manual.  In my daily drive, I may have to stop on a long
> > steep
> > hill with vehicles in front and back of me.  I will stay about 30 feet
> > from
> > the vehicle in front of me.  The vehicle in back of me may be very close
> > and
> > may have a problem if I do not correctly re-lease the brake at the right
> > time I press on the accelerator.
> >
> > To do this procedure correctly, I have to hold the vehicle with the
> > brake
> > and press the accelerator until the motor ampere reads about 300 amps.
> >  This
> > is not good to do this, because the motor is at stall at this point
> > which
> > prevents the EV from rolling back. The overall gear ratio is at about
> > 19:1
> > in 1st gear to be able to accomplish this procedure.
> >
> > Using the automatic which has a large 12 inch torque converter with a
> > low
> > rpm lock up at 1700 rpm at 1:1 ratio and a 1:8 ratio at 300 rpm, will
> > hold
> > the EV on this steep hill with no brakes apply.  I use a idle control
> > switch
> > which adds additional resistance to the accelerator POT which allows a
> > smooth run up of the motor to 300 rpm.
> >
> > Instead of holding the EV on a hill at 300 motor ampere and may surge to
> > 600
> > and stalling while trying to roll, it now holds at 50 to 100 motor
> > ampere
> > with the automatic.
> >
> > During this daily run, the EV actually uses 0.5 ampere hour less per
> > mile
> > than it did with the manual.
> >
> > It is also best to match the lock up rpm to the sweet spot of a motor or
> > of
> > a engine.  Engines have a sweet spot in the range of 4000 to 5000 rpm.
> > My
> > WarP-11 and GE-11 motor has the sweet spot at 1800 rpm.  This is where
> > you
> > want to match your shift points to maintain the motor ampere and torque
> > at
> > a
> > same constant.
> >
> > You therefore want the torque converter lock up as close to the sweet
> > spot
> > rpm of the motor which in my case is 1800 rpm.  Starting out, the auto
> > transmission is in 1st up to 1800 rpm and the motor ampere is held at
> > 200
> > amps.  The overall gear ratio varies from 29:1 at 300 rpm to 16:1 to
> > 1800
> > rpm.
> >
> > Shifting to 2nd at 1800 rpm, the transition is so smooth, that you do
> > not
> > notice the gear shifting.  The motor ampere is still at 200 amps and the
> > overall gear ratio varies from 16:1 to 10:1 while the speed increases to
> > 26
> > mph which is most of my city driving.
> >
> > For the very first time, I was able to shift to 3rd gear at the sweet
> > spot
> > of 1800 rpm with the overall gear ratio varying from 10:1 to 5.57:1 and
> > was
> > able to run up to 45-50 mph and still have the motor ampere at 200 amps
> > while slowly acceleration.  When the EV was up to a steady speed of 45
> > to
> > 50
> > mph, the motor ampere actually drop to about 150 motor amps.
> >
> > Note:  Try the direct drive automatic pump shaft that eliminated the
> > torque
> > converter.  This is ok for drag racing, but you will not get out of a
> > parking spot without smashing up the vehicles in front and rear of you.
> >  The
> > transmission oil pump first has to come up rpm to lock on and then BAM,
> > the
> > EV may actually jump a bit.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martin WINLOW" <[hidden email]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 2:06 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] hot trans
> >
> >
> > >
> > > On 23 Jun 2012, at 18:26, Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
> > >
> > > > When I do an auto trans, I use a AC condenser for a cooler, usually
> > > > 17X15 inched, or around that. a tube type 2 row, and a large 12 volt
> > > > electric fan to cool the condenser oil to the trans
> > > > This keep the temp down, an add on trans cooler wont do the job at
> > > > all,
> > > > way to small ..in a normal ICE system the trans is cooled by the
> > > > radiator, water in that can be as high as 200 degs. so the trans
> > > > fluid
> > > > is that hot to, so is the trans body.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Why bother?  Just use a manual  transmission (clutch preferred but it
> > > works without it) and save all the hassle <and> make it considerably
> > > more
> > > efficient.  Better acceleration, top speed and hill climbing too if
> > you're
> > > locking your auto in one gear.
> > >
> > > Regards, Martin Winlow
> > > Herts, UK
> > > http://www.evalbum.com/2092
> > > www.winlow.co.uk
> > >
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Re: hot trans

Roger Stockton
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
Lee Hart wrote:

> Wayne can answer for himself; but the usual reasons I hear are:
>
> 1. The donor car I want to use has an automatic.
> 2. I don't like stick shifts.

I'll add another:

3. Using an automatic (with torque converter) adds significant protection to the typical series DC motor when the EV is in the hands of an ordinary driver.  You cannot damage the comm by holding the vehicle on a hill with the throttle; you cannot over-rev the motor during shifting (or burn up the clutch riding it); and, it is difficult to over-speed the motor while driving (unless you are determined to ;^)

Done properly, I think an automatic could result in a better driving experience for a series DC conversion, by automating the peculiar shifting required for best performance (e.g. shifting *up* to accelerate/pass, and otherwise running the motor at high, rather than low RPM).

Cheers,

Roger.


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Circuit Breaker Trip Reason

Bill Dennis
Yesterday, I had the circuit breaker trip in my EV for the first time, and I wanted to see if the explanation I've come to sounds reasonable.  There's a steep, short hill on 800 South, speed limit 30 MPH.  Normally, I take it in 2nd gear, but the car can't keep up to speed in 2nd, so I accelerate to about 37 MPH, then by the time I reach the top, I'm at 30 MPH.  Yesterday, with my wife in the passenger seat and about 50 pounds of groceries in the trunk, I decided to take the hill in 3rd gear.  Worked fine.  I actually went up the hill at about 37 MPH the whole way. "Great!" I thought.  When I neared the crest of the hill, I took my foot off the pedal and coasted toward the next red light.  But when the light turned green and I stepped on the accelerator, nothing.  Pulled over to the side and the road and opened the hood.  Positive breaker had tripped.  
Now, here's the explanation I want to run by you guys.  I have two packs in parallel, and each has its own breaker.  The two breakers are mechanically connected together, so that if one trips, they both trip.  Each breaker is 200A.  The two parallel strings, however, don't share the load equally.  One is 100Ah LFP cells, and the other is 200Ah LCP cells.  The LCP cells have high internal resistance and provide much less current.  I'm wondering if when I let up on the accelerator, the LFP cells started to recover faster and started recharging the LCP cells, which were recovering more slowly.  Current went over 200AH between the two strings, and the breaker popped.
Sound in the realm of possibility?  If not, what could be the reason the that breaker seemed to trip when I let up on the pedal, not while I was climbing the hill?

Thanks.

Bill

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Re: Circuit Breaker Trip Reason

Dennis Miles
Bill that explanation sounds very reasonable. the old solution for
paralleling multiple batteries we used in RV systems was a series diode
with a parallel diode, that way the diode allowed both batteries to feed
the heavy load but the diode blocked transfer from the stronger battery to
the weaker and the resister allowed a controlled recharge from stronger to
weaker.
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*   (863)944-9913 (call noon to midnight Eastern time)
*[hidden email]*
*+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
*Offering a 12 day class July 9 to 21, 2012 in Central Florida. more info
on Web; WWW.ElectricVehicleTechnicalinstitute.COM<http://www.electricvehicletechnicalinstitute.com/>
*
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Bill Dennis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yesterday, I had the circuit breaker trip in my EV for the first time, and
> I wanted to see if the explanation I've come to sounds reasonable.  There's
> a steep, short hill on 800 South, speed limit 30 MPH.  Normally, I take it
> in 2nd gear, but the car can't keep up to speed in 2nd, so I accelerate to
> about 37 MPH, then by the time I reach the top, I'm at 30 MPH.  Yesterday,
> with my wife in the passenger seat and about 50 pounds of groceries in the
> trunk, I decided to take the hill in 3rd gear.  Worked fine.  I actually
> went up the hill at about 37 MPH the whole way. "Great!" I thought.  When I
> neared the crest of the hill, I took my foot off the pedal and coasted
> toward the next red light.  But when the light turned green and I stepped
> on the accelerator, nothing.  Pulled over to the side and the road and
> opened the hood.  Positive breaker had tripped.
> Now, here's the explanation I want to run by you guys.  I have two packs
> in parallel, and each has its own breaker.  The two breakers are
> mechanically connected together, so that if one trips, they both trip.
>  Each breaker is 200A.  The two parallel strings, however, don't share the
> load equally.  One is 100Ah LFP cells, and the other is 200Ah LCP cells.
>  The LCP cells have high internal resistance and provide much less current.
>  I'm wondering if when I let up on the accelerator, the LFP cells started
> to recover faster and started recharging the LCP cells, which were
> recovering more slowly.  Current went over 200AH between the two strings,
> and the breaker popped.
> Sound in the realm of possibility?  If not, what could be the reason the
> that breaker seemed to trip when I let up on the pedal, not while I was
> climbing the hill?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Circuit Breaker Trip Reason

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by Bill Dennis
Circuit breakers trip when the current is over the limit for a certain
time.
So, you may be able to climb the hill in 3rd gear and pulling 400A
without tripping the breaker immediately but likely it tripped towards
the crest of the hill and you only noticed when you tried to drive away.
It is unlikely that the LCP pack sucks more amps than it can deliver,
so I expect that once you stop pulling major current (for example
300A from your LFP pack and 100A from the LCP pack for a total of 400A)
then there will be an equalizatoin current in the same order of the
LCP pack current - around 100A.
So the issue is not whether you went over 200A but how long you pulled
more and how much more. The further over the breaker limit, the faster
it will trip.
My conversion also has a (dual) 200A breaker (in + and - from battery)
and I routinely pull 300-320A upon acceleration and maintain freeway
speed at just under 200A. I have not tripped the breaker until now but
I may need to go for a 300A breaker if I increase the max battery
current to 500A.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 6:43 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Circuit Breaker Trip Reason

Yesterday, I had the circuit breaker trip in my EV for the first time,
and I wanted to see if the explanation I've come to sounds reasonable.
There's a steep, short hill on 800 South, speed limit 30 MPH.  Normally,
I take it in 2nd gear, but the car can't keep up to speed in 2nd, so I
accelerate to about 37 MPH, then by the time I reach the top, I'm at 30
MPH.  Yesterday, with my wife in the passenger seat and about 50 pounds
of groceries in the trunk, I decided to take the hill in 3rd gear.
Worked fine.  I actually went up the hill at about 37 MPH the whole way.
"Great!" I thought.  When I neared the crest of the hill, I took my foot
off the pedal and coasted toward the next red light.  But when the light
turned green and I stepped on the accelerator, nothing.  Pulled over to
the side and the road and opened the hood.  Positive breaker had
tripped.  
Now, here's the explanation I want to run by you guys.  I have two packs
in parallel, and each has its own breaker.  The two breakers are
mechanically connected together, so that if one trips, they both trip.
Each breaker is 200A.  The two parallel strings, however, don't share
the load equally.  One is 100Ah LFP cells, and the other is 200Ah LCP
cells.  The LCP cells have high internal resistance and provide much
less current.  I'm wondering if when I let up on the accelerator, the
LFP cells started to recover faster and started recharging the LCP
cells, which were recovering more slowly.  Current went over 200AH
between the two strings, and the breaker popped.
Sound in the realm of possibility?  If not, what could be the reason the
that breaker seemed to trip when I let up on the pedal, not while I was
climbing the hill?

Thanks.

Bill

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