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Electric Blue auto convertions
I.v heard from a very good source that the leaf is not cracked up to be what its advertised to be,, 100 mile range?? sure, at 22 MPH and no wind, and on a table flat road. at 50 MPH its drops off like falling off a cliff ...So hear we go again, more teasing more .."its almost good" and" by it and if you cant get 100 mile range your not driving it right". The person that told me this ,asked for his deposit back after asking then demanding many times on performance data on the car, Nissan didnt want to give it to him, but did in the end . More of the "screw you , we'll build what we want. and deliver any piece of shit we can" attitude. BUT I was expecting this from them.. just another day at manufacturing land

ev-blue.com
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Re: leaf

Willie McKemie
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 09:18:03AM -0400, Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
> I.v heard from a very good source that the leaf is not cracked up to be what its advertised to be,, 100 mile range?? sure, at 22 MPH and no wind, and on a table flat road. at 50 MPH its drops off like falling off a cliff ...So hear we go again, more teasing more .."its almost good" and" by it and if you cant get 100 mile range your not driving it right". The person that told me this ,asked for his deposit back after asking then demanding many times on performance data on the car, Nissan didnt want to give it to him, but did in the end . More of the "screw you , we'll build what we want. and deliver any piece of shit we can" attitude. BUT I was expecting this from them.. just another day at manufacturing land

I'm in line for a Leaf.  My middle name is either "Disaster" or
"Disappointment"; my birth certificate is smudged.

80-100 miles does seem optimistic for, what?, a 27 kwh pack.  My 37kwh
pack gives me 100-120 miles; maybe 150 miles with very slow and careful
driving.  I hoping the Leaf gets down around 200 wh/m while my Hyundai
gets 250-300.

What I'm looking for in the Leaf is reliability.  And a network of
repair facilities.  Maybe later, pack extensions.

http://evalbum.com/2314

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  11 days  5 hours 52 minutes

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Re: leaf, 100 mile range

Matt Childress
I've looked at several graphs of data, and the 100 mile range is just
pointless.  The data is for the US, but we're one of the most
car-centric societies around.  Here's how the logic breaks down:

        * 50% of Americans who drive daily, drive less-than 25 miles a
day (80% drive 50 mpd or less!)
       
http://illinoisev.googlegroups.com/web/PersonalVehicleMilesDrivenDaily.j
pg

        * Something like 75% of trips in vehicles are single-passenger
(ie, driver).  
      * The average vehicle in America seats 5 and weighs 2,000 or more
pounds.  
        2000 to deliver 200.  Those are payload-to-delivery vehicle
numbers only a rocket
         scientist could approve of!
        (sorry, no pretty graph on these two -- anyone else got a graph
I could pretty up?)
        * There are more Level 1 EV Charging stations installed out
there RIGHT NOW than
        there are gas stations (or even Starbucks).  A Level 1 charging
station is more
        commonly known as a standard 3-prong electrical outlet
(120V/15A, preferably
        GFCI and weather protected).  They're about $2-3 at most
hardware stores.
           (again, no graph -- this is just common knowledge)
      * Vehicles have outnumbered licensed drivers to drive them in the
US for several decades.  
        This means most households own 2 or more vehicles.  So when you
need the range or extra
        people hauling capacity, drive your second or third car, the
energy guzzler/polluter.

So you look at the data, and you realize the need to go 100 miles at a
time is a made-up number: for 80% of the people it is unnecessary on an
everyday basis.  These numbers are back in 1990, back before gas prices
spiked so it's highly likely the numbers are even more favorable.  And
this easily gets us off foreign oil and drastically reduces our
environmental damage due to drilling/CO2 emissions, satisfying both the
right and the left, with the fun and the money savings of driving
electric satisfying the middle.

Further, the standard car is vastly oversized and TDB (too darn big, ie,
heavy).  And that makes your battery pack TDB (too darn big) and
therefore TDE (too darn expensive) AND you can no longer charge on a
Level 1/three prong outlet in a reasonable amount of time, so you have
to charge at special charging stations.  Then range anxiety sets in...
so you think you need a bigger pack.  Which increases charging time,
adds more weight and the more weight you add, the further down the
spiral you go.

You establish Type 1 charging stations on every block, lot and parking
deck.  There is very little infrastructure cost -- only thing in most
cities would require would be signage.  This allows for opportunity
charging, more-than enough for a lightweighted, funstainably-sized EV
with a reasonable pack to easily charge from empty to full on 8 hours or
less (ie, a standard work day) on 120/15A circuit.  But with opportunity
charging you would be topped off most of the time.  And then you stop
worrying about 100 miles per charge (as shown above graph, it's
unnecessary, especially when combined with opportunity charging and
plenty of signage).  You stop dragging around the vehicle weight to haul
4-5 people, but rather 1+1's or 2+2's (where the 'plus' is conceptually
like a rumble seat -- not comfy, but you can shove a kiddo back there
for short amounts of time -- 50 miles or so), otherwise it's
grocery/hardware hauling space.  Obviously opportunity charging requires
battery chemistries that prefer to be full most of the time, not charged
fully, then drained completely.

And compared to city busses, SUV's and standard cars, lightweight
vehicles do almost no road damage, so you take those arguing about how
to apply road tax to electricity/electric vehicles and you tell 'em to
stick a plug in it.

But wait!  American's want bigger, heavier!  Ever seen the Mazda Miata?
They'll buy sexy, tiny.  But not ugly econobox with no frills.  Ford
found that out with their first world car, the Focus which they stripped
off the luxury items for the US market, and fixed it with the Fiesta, a
fully loaded small car.

These ideas are not new, they're just all glommed together, and once you
see 'em all together, hopefully a nice renewably fueled LED lightbulb
goes off... less IS more... REDUCE, reuse, recycle.  There's a reason
why reduce comes first, and when it's applied to EV's, magic happens.

M@
www.illinois.edu/goto/twike

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 9:57 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf

On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 09:18:03AM -0400, Electric Blue auto convertions
wrote:
> I.v heard from a very good source that the leaf is not cracked up to
be what its advertised to be,, 100 mile range?? sure, at 22 MPH and no
wind, and on a table flat road. at 50 MPH its drops off like falling off
a cliff ...So hear we go again, more teasing more .."its almost good"
and" by it and if you cant get 100 mile range your not driving it
right". The person that told me this ,asked for his deposit back after
asking then demanding many times on performance data on the car, Nissan
didnt want to give it to him, but did in the end . More of the "screw
you , we'll build what we want. and deliver any piece of shit we can"
attitude. BUT I was expecting this from them.. just another day at
manufacturing land

I'm in line for a Leaf.  My middle name is either "Disaster" or
"Disappointment"; my birth certificate is smudged.

80-100 miles does seem optimistic for, what?, a 27 kwh pack.  My 37kwh
pack gives me 100-120 miles; maybe 150 miles with very slow and careful
driving.  I hoping the Leaf gets down around 200 wh/m while my Hyundai
gets 250-300.

What I'm looking for in the Leaf is reliability.  And a network of
repair facilities.  Maybe later, pack extensions.

http://evalbum.com/2314

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  11 days  5 hours 52 minutes

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Re: leaf, 100 mile range

EVDL Administrator
On 23 Sep 2010 at 9:48, Childress, Matthew wrote:

> So you look at the data, and you realize the need to go 100 miles at a
> time is a made-up number: for 80% of the people it is unnecessary on an
> everyday basis.

Sure!  We know this.  But most vehicle owners and buyers >think< they need
range of 150 or 200 miles.  You can even have them add up the number of
miles they drove last year and divide it by 365.  They'll still say they
need 150 or 200 (or more) miles of range because they need to go that for
now and then.

Most people don't need to carry a half-ton of cargo or 7 passengers very
often either; most vehicles on the road are carrying only one person and a
few small items nearly all the time.  However, with some encouragement from
advertising, millions of vehicle buyers spend substantial amounts of  money
on purchasing and operating large vehicles so they can carry that much cargo
or passengers once or twice a year (if that often).  

I'm not saying we shouldn't publicize these figures.  A few people will say,
"Hey, that makes sense," and for them moderate-range EVs will suddenly
become an option. But for the rest, there's no percentage in arguing.  If
they think they need 200 miles of range and room for 7 passengers, you're
not going to change their minds.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: leaf

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by Willie McKemie

On 23 Sep 2010, at 15:56, Willie McKemie wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 09:18:03AM -0400, Electric Blue auto  
> convertions wrote:
>> I.v heard from a very good source that the leaf is not cracked up  
>> to be what its advertised to be,, 100 mile range?? sure, at 22 MPH  
>> and no wind, and on a table flat road. at 50 MPH its drops off like  
>> falling off a cliff ...


27kW on a reasonably slippery vehicle like the leaf should give 100m  
at 50mph - so don't give up on it just yet!

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



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Re: leaf, 100 mile range

Dave Hymers
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
>
> If they think they need 200 miles of range and room for 7 passengers,
> you're
> not going to change their minds.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
>
They're not going to care or understand before gas reaches $4-5 / gallon.
Only afterwards
Depressing reality. People who care and get it are few and far between.
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Re: leaf, 100 mile range

EVPower
I see this as a see-saw battle. Up down, Up down... Oil prices up, the
crowd gets louder. Oil prices down, the crowd goes quiet. This in my
opinion is a "toe in the water" approach by the oil guys to see what the
public will bear. Keep in mind the price of anything is governed by what
the market will bear. That price is usually the "maximum" the market
will bear without too much negative press.

If oil prices are "low enough" to keep the public at bay, they don't
talk about EVs, and the motivation to create or invent something better
goes away almost completely. If the price gets too high the public
revolts and start looking to "alternatives".

I agree with David... If people "want" an EV that goes 200-300 miles on
a charge, then it's VERY difficult if not impossible to change their mind.

I take a different approach. Change the market and the minds will follow.

The Leaf is doing this.

Regards,
Eric



On 9/23/2010 12:00 PM, Dave Hymers wrote:

>> If they think they need 200 miles of range and room for 7 passengers,
>> you're
>> not going to change their minds.
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>>
>>
>>      
> They're not going to care or understand before gas reaches $4-5 / gallon.
> Only afterwards
> Depressing reality. People who care and get it are few and far between.
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Re: leaf, 100 mile range

Matt Childress
In reply to this post by Dave Hymers
I like windmills -- I tilt at them often ;-)

They're not as few and far between as you might imagine.  

Go to any local university with a fun, cool-looking EV that parks and
charges for free (while car parking is upwards of $500 a year or more)
and see how many young people get it... and they've yet to buy their
first car... then tell them that they can build their own EV for under
$1000 and it requires neither a license, nor insurance and goes wherever
a bicycle goes and cuts through congestion and parks wherever a bicycle
does for free.  It's called an eBike.  Once they start paying for gas
themselves just to get around town on their limited budget, they DO get
it.  Once you get them on an eBike, it's hard to get the smile off their
face!

I came to realize very quickly that you've got to be picky about where
you spend your effort, and attempting to convince people with closed
minds isn't worth the effort.  So I go to where they're open already --
schools.  With young people in them.  Who see a weird vehicle and think
"cool!" not "weird".  I've had frat boys, sorority girls, construction
workers and rap-star wannabes all give me thumbs up and shout-outs while
twiking around town.

Sometimes the generation gap is a GOOD thing.  And they can retrain
their parents when they start bitching about the price of gas -- I don't
have to change their mind.

The secret ingredient for the early adopter market is you don't want
your EV to look like a normal car.

M@

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Dave Hymers
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 2:01 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

>
> If they think they need 200 miles of range and room for 7 passengers,
> you're
> not going to change their minds.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
>
They're not going to care or understand before gas reaches $4-5 /
gallon.
Only afterwards
Depressing reality. People who care and get it are few and far between.
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Re: leaf, 100 mile range

Rick Beebe
In reply to this post by Matt Childress
Childress, Matthew wrote:
> * There are more Level 1 EV Charging stations installed out
> there RIGHT NOW than
>         there are gas stations (or even Starbucks).  A Level 1 charging
> station is more
>         commonly known as a standard 3-prong electrical outlet
> (120V/15A, preferably
>         GFCI and weather protected).  They're about $2-3 at most
> hardware stores.
>   (again, no graph -- this is just common knowledge)

They might be common but they aren't necessarily publically accessible,
available for use or well maintained. And it costs far more than $3 to
have a new one installed, especially where it's convenient for an EV.
And don't forget that not everyone lives in a single family house with a
garage. Many people live in condo complexes and apartment buildings.
There might be an outlet or two but cost becomes an issue when five or
ten occupants have EVs. People who live in cold country may be at an
advantage because many places have installed outlets for block heaters.

>       * Vehicles have outnumbered licensed drivers to drive them in the
> US for several decades.  
>         This means most households own 2 or more vehicles.  So when you
> need the range or extra
>         people hauling capacity, drive your second or third car, the
> energy guzzler/polluter.

The fact is correct but the conclusion is arguable. Vehicles have
outnumbered drivers since 1972. According to the DOT there were roughly
248 million vehicles and 208 million drivers in 2008. But the vehicle
number includes corporate fleets and government vehicles. Even without
that, there's only enough "extra" vehicles for 20% of drivers to have a
second car. That said, many households do have 2 or more vehicles but
they also have 2 or more drivers. The problem is your argument consigns
the second driver to always driving a gas guzzler even though both
drivers may commute the same distance.

> So you look at the data, and you realize the need to go 100 miles at a
> time is a made-up number: for 80% of the people it is unnecessary on an
> everyday basis.

I generally agree with that but in order to sell an EV you have to
convince the buyer that they won't get stuck somewhere. I think the 100
mile number is sort of a mental threshold for many people. I will say
that I used to think the same thing until a single line in "Who killed
the electric car" was an epiphany. And that was that every day when you
get up your "tank" will be full. I sometimes ask people how large their
gas tank would have to be if elves came to their house and filled it
every night. The answer is generally not very large.

I wanted to answer the range question for myself so for a month I
meticulously recorded all my mileage. Most days I drive between 16 miles
(straight to work and back) and 25 miles (stop at a store or
restaurant). 5 days in the month I drove between 25 and 40 miles. Twice
I drove move than 40 miles--ironically one was to an EAA meeting at Bob
Rice's house. The other was 138 miles to the airport and back. So for
me, 40 miles useful range would handle 80%+ of my driving. But we can't
take lightly what I have to do the other 20% of the time.

My parents and two brothers live in rural Maine. It's 18 miles to the
nearest grocery store. They routinely drive more than 60 miles in a day.
For them, I doubt that an EV would make sense unless it could reliably
give them 100 miles.

> You establish Type 1 charging stations on every block, lot and parking
> deck.  There is very little infrastructure cost -- only thing in most
> cities would require would be signage.

I think you grossly overestimate the number of outlets already installed
in those places. And if they're not installed, trenching and conduits
and wiring are not cheap. I've looked around my city and there are no
outlets in most parking areas. We do have two garages (both run by
Propark) which installed 'EV charging stations' and they're available
for free (kudos to them). The first one they installed was just two 110V
15amp circuits and a couple signs. Actually it was one 15 amp circuit
until our EAA guys showed up for the opening ceremony and kept tripping
the breaker. But they fixed that. The second one just opened and it
supposedly has a "real" charging station suitable for a Volt or Leaf
(their words). I think that's fabulous but it's nowhere near enough if
lots of people start buying EVs.

But I also think that like the 'need' for 100+ mile range, the need for
public charging stations is also overblown. It's just another way of
easing range anxiety. If I had a car that could realistically go 100
miles on a charge, all but one of my trips that month would have been
satisfied with no external charging. If there was a charge outlet at the
airport I could have done that trip in the car but I was only there to
drop someone off. I wouldn't want to drive there and then have to plug
in for four hours to have enough juice to get home. And if I could have
a car with 150 mile range I would be amenable to renting a car for the
3-4 times a year I need more range. I'm not amenable to renting one
every month to go more than 100 miles.

--Rick


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Re: leaf

Dennis Miles
In reply to this post by martinwinlow
Martin, in your remark,
     "27kW on a reasonably slippery vehicle like the leaf should give 100m
at 50mph - so don't give up on it just yet!"
      1.) Did you mean 100 METERS or MILES ??
And Personally I also hope it is Miles. As we all are too often disappointed
by the Manufacturers. As they promise the World but do not deliver.
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles   (Director)     E.V.T.I. inc.
w*ww.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM*    (Adviser) EVTI-EVA Education Chapter
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Martin WINLOW <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
> On 23 Sep 2010, at 15:56, Willie McKemie wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 09:18:03AM -0400, Electric Blue auto
> > convertions wrote:
> >> I.v heard from a very good source that the leaf is not cracked up
> >> to be what its advertised to be,, 100 mile range?? sure, at 22 MPH
> >> and no wind, and on a table flat road. at 50 MPH its drops off like
> >> falling off a cliff ...
>
>
> 27kW on a reasonably slippery vehicle like the leaf should give 100m
> at 50mph - so don't give up on it just yet!
>
> Regards, Martin Winlow
> Herts, UK
> http://www.evalbum.com/2092
> www.winlow.co.uk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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--

   It’s estimated that the existing U.S. electrical grid has sufficient
capacity to fully fuel three-quarters of the nation’s 217 million passenger
vehicles.
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Re: leaf

Dennis Miles
In reply to this post by Willie McKemie
Willie,  I also,"I'm looking for in the Leaf is reliability.  And a network
of repair facilities.
So say we all, And I am trying to enlarge on that last item too.
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles   (Director)     E.V.T.I. inc.
www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM    (Adviser) EVTI-EVA Education Chapter
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Willie McKemie <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 09:18:03AM -0400, Electric Blue auto convertions
> wrote:
> > I.v heard from a very good source that the leaf is not cracked up to be
> what its advertised to be,, 100 mile range?? sure, at 22 MPH and no wind,
> and on a table flat road. at 50 MPH its drops off like falling off a cliff
> ...So hear we go again, more teasing more .."its almost good" and" by it and
> if you cant get 100 mile range your not driving it right". The person that
> told me this ,asked for his deposit back after asking then demanding many
> times on performance data on the car, Nissan didnt want to give it to him,
> but did in the end . More of the "screw you , we'll build what we want. and
> deliver any piece of shit we can" attitude. BUT I was expecting this from
> them.. just another day at manufacturing land
>
> I'm in line for a Leaf.  My middle name is either "Disaster" or
> "Disappointment"; my birth certificate is smudged.
>
> 80-100 miles does seem optimistic for, what?, a 27 kwh pack.  My 37kwh
> pack gives me 100-120 miles; maybe 150 miles with very slow and careful
> driving.  I hoping the Leaf gets down around 200 wh/m while my Hyundai
> gets 250-300.
>
> What I'm looking for in the Leaf is reliability.  And a network of
> repair facilities.  Maybe later, pack extensions.
>
> http://evalbum.com/2314
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  11 days  5 hours 52 minutes
>
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--

   It’s estimated that the existing U.S. electrical grid has sufficient
capacity to fully fuel three-quarters of the nation’s 217 million passenger
vehicles.
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Re: leaf

Dave Hymers
If we pin out hopes on the Leaf and it DOESN'T kick out 100miles for
everyone
that is going to be a bit of a setback for EVs isn't it ?
We can only hope that Nissan is using as little of the battery as possible
(50% DOD ?) when quoting these ranges,
and we'll routinely see cars doing 120-130miles
I hope they're playing it safe and not setting everyone up (buyers and
supporters) for a nasty outcome.
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Re: leaf, 100 mile range

Peter VanDerWal
In reply to this post by Matt Childress
Besides the Smart car, what current production car only weighs around
2,000 lbs?
Even the new minis weigh over 2,700 lbs.

Totally agree with you about the silliness of using 1.5 to 3 tons of
vehicle  to move 200 lbs of payload.
Unfortunately with all the "safety" laws, it's hard to make a lightweight
vehicle.

>       * The average vehicle in America seats 5 and weighs 2,000 or more
> pounds. 2000 to deliver 200.  Those are payload-to-delivery vehicle
> numbers only a rocket scientist could approve of!

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Re: leaf, 100 mile range

EVDL Administrator
On 23 Sep 2010 at 16:58, [hidden email] wrote:

> Unfortunately with all the "safety" laws, it's hard to make a lightweight
> vehicle.

Margaret's '07 Honda Fit is a good example.  It's just slightly larger than
my 1976 VW Rabbit was, but weighs a portly 700lb more.  (I think the Fit
would make a pretty good conversion anyway, but for some reason she hasn't
yet agreed to let me do it.)  

Some of the weight gain is no doubt the result of safety legislation, but
especially in recent years, a lot of it is customer demand.  

No longer is NHTSA stipulation the only impetus behind vehicle safety.  It
seems as if it's become almost a competitive requirement for cars to
surround every passenger with a protective cocoon of air bags - above,
below, to the left and right, in front of, and behind.  (I'm only
exaggerating a little.)  Buyers actually pay attention to (and manufacturers
advertise) five-star driver and passenger protection scores.  We've come a
long way from the 1950s and "safety doesn't sell."  

ABS, stability control, and other similar features add some weight too,
though I don't know how much.

Regrettably some of these safety features rely on the vehicle body computer,
and from what I understand, many of them have fits if the ICE isn't running.
When you convert such a car you either find a way to simulate the ICE for
that computer's sake, or at least some of those safety features (I realize
that some don't consider them desirable) just become dead weight.

Another contributor to the blimping-out of small cars we might convert is
the heavy accessorizing that buyers now demand.  In 1975 you could sell a
small car with manual brakes and steering, roll-up windows, manual door
locks, and no air-con. I can remember when radios were optional and at one
time even heaters were extra cost items!  I haven't seen such a car on offer
in years.  Everything is tricked out with convenience and appearance
gimmicks.  Even the NMG has electric windows.  

Power accessories not only add weight in themselves, but they require more
expense, weight, and space for power steering drive motors and brake vacuum
pumps when converting them.  

All that said, I suspect that much of the extra dead weight in modern cars
comes from large amounts of sound deadening and acoustic isolating material.
The good news is that when you convert such a car to electric drive, quite a
lot of this muffling weight can be removed - just about all of it, if you
don't mind a bit of extra road noise.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Re: leaf, 100 mile range

gpullinger
This makes me want to point out that there are probably no production cars
that one can buy in the USA that are as light as 2000 pounds.  Most cars
weigh a good deal more ( pickups and SUVs are in the 5000 to 8000 pound
range ).

On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 6:56 PM, EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 23 Sep 2010 at 16:58, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately with all the "safety" laws, it's hard to make a lightweight
> > vehicle.
>
> Margaret's '07 Honda Fit is a good example.  It's just slightly larger than
> my 1976 VW Rabbit was, but weighs a portly 700lb more.  (I think the Fit
> would make a pretty good conversion anyway, but for some reason she hasn't
> yet agreed to let me do it.)
>
> Some of the weight gain is no doubt the result of safety legislation, but
> especially in recent years, a lot of it is customer demand.
>
> No longer is NHTSA stipulation the only impetus behind vehicle safety.  It
> seems as if it's become almost a competitive requirement for cars to
> surround every passenger with a protective cocoon of air bags - above,
> below, to the left and right, in front of, and behind.  (I'm only
> exaggerating a little.)  Buyers actually pay attention to (and
> manufacturers
> advertise) five-star driver and passenger protection scores.  We've come a
> long way from the 1950s and "safety doesn't sell."
>
> ABS, stability control, and other similar features add some weight too,
> though I don't know how much.
>
> Regrettably some of these safety features rely on the vehicle body
> computer,
> and from what I understand, many of them have fits if the ICE isn't
> running.
> When you convert such a car you either find a way to simulate the ICE for
> that computer's sake, or at least some of those safety features (I realize
> that some don't consider them desirable) just become dead weight.
>
> Another contributor to the blimping-out of small cars we might convert is
> the heavy accessorizing that buyers now demand.  In 1975 you could sell a
> small car with manual brakes and steering, roll-up windows, manual door
> locks, and no air-con. I can remember when radios were optional and at one
> time even heaters were extra cost items!  I haven't seen such a car on
> offer
> in years.  Everything is tricked out with convenience and appearance
> gimmicks.  Even the NMG has electric windows.
>
> Power accessories not only add weight in themselves, but they require more
> expense, weight, and space for power steering drive motors and brake vacuum
> pumps when converting them.
>
> All that said, I suspect that much of the extra dead weight in modern cars
> comes from large amounts of sound deadening and acoustic isolating
> material.
> The good news is that when you convert such a car to electric drive, quite
> a
> lot of this muffling weight can be removed - just about all of it, if you
> don't mind a bit of extra road noise.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: leaf

Mike Nickerson
In reply to this post by Dennis Miles
I found out last weekend that my Honda del Sol conversion with 14kWH of
battery (144V lithium, 100 AH) would go 50 miles to completely out.  That
was a combination of highway (at 55-60 MPH) and city (35 MPH stop and go).
The del Sol is pretty small, but it is heavy for its size and not
particularly aerodynamic.  I think 100 miles on 27 kWH of battery in a car
specially designed to be efficient is at least pretty close.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Dennis Miles
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 2:47 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf

Martin, in your remark,
     "27kW on a reasonably slippery vehicle like the leaf should give 100m
at 50mph - so don't give up on it just yet!"
      1.) Did you mean 100 METERS or MILES ??
And Personally I also hope it is Miles. As we all are too often disappointed
by the Manufacturers. As they promise the World but do not deliver.
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles   (Director)     E.V.T.I. inc.
w*ww.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM*    (Adviser) EVTI-EVA Education Chapter
Phone (863) 944 - 9913


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Re: leaf

poweredbydc
In reply to this post by Electric Blue auto convertions
  Wayne, you have built enough EV's to know that not only is it possible, it is very likely that the leaf will get 100 miles per charge.

Hell, I have built several electric SUV's (Toyota Rav4's) with  28KW lithium packs that will do over 100 miles per charge at 60mph with a off the shelf DC systems.  

The Toyota Rav4 EV's built 10+ years ago could  do it as well

With all of the advances in battery technology etc. we have seen over the last several years,  what makes you think that Nissan couldn't do it with slightly smaller pack and componets designed specifically for the task ?

Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
http://www.currentevtech.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii

   
Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
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$10K 100 Mile EV

EVPower
Here's a challenging thought experiment to think outside the box.

Scenario: The year is 2050, you're in a post-apocalyptic wasteland
formerly known as Las Vegas. You must get 100 miles to the next town to
save the lives of everyone in that town who's in danger of dying of
dehydration. They have 24hours to live in the blistering desert heat,
and you must bring them life saving water. The ONLY way to travel is by
an EV that you build yourself. Money still exists (somehow) and you only
have $10K in your pocket with no hope of outside financial help. No
vehicles exist in the town you are in., but there is a store that
carries EVERY part to build an EV from scratch.

Could you build an EV with a 100 mile range with $10K?


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Re: leaf

Evan Tuer
In reply to this post by martinwinlow
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Martin WINLOW <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 23 Sep 2010, at 15:56, Willie McKemie wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 09:18:03AM -0400, Electric Blue auto
>> convertions wrote:
>>> I.v heard from a very good source that the leaf is not cracked up
>>> to be what its advertised to be,, 100 mile range?? sure, at 22 MPH
>>> and no wind, and on a table flat road. at 50 MPH its drops off like
>>> falling off a cliff ...
>
>
> 27kW on a reasonably slippery vehicle like the leaf should give 100m
> at 50mph - so don't give up on it just yet!

I think you've got your units a bit wrong there.

Also, my Peugeot 106 happily does >100 miles on 23kWh, for comparison.

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Re: leaf, 100 mile range

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
Not everything power is bad.
Power windows typically are lighter than hand-crancked ones for the
crank and mechanism is replaced by a small button, small electric motor
with gear and a steel wire in shaft which weigh less and use
not as much space as the hand-crank.
That was the reason that even some dedicated-designed EVs where ONLY
efficiency and thus weight were considered, still used power windows.

The only way to make windows lighter is to give them a pivot or hinge so
you can open them without need to lower them into the door. I have not
seen those features on any modern car either.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 5:26 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

On 23 Sep 2010 at 16:58, [hidden email] wrote:

> Unfortunately with all the "safety" laws, it's hard to make a
> lightweight vehicle.

Margaret's '07 Honda Fit is a good example.  It's just slightly larger
than my 1976 VW Rabbit was, but weighs a portly 700lb more.  (I think
the Fit would make a pretty good conversion anyway, but for some reason
she hasn't yet agreed to let me do it.)  

Some of the weight gain is no doubt the result of safety legislation,
but especially in recent years, a lot of it is customer demand.  

No longer is NHTSA stipulation the only impetus behind vehicle safety.
It seems as if it's become almost a competitive requirement for cars to
surround every passenger with a protective cocoon of air bags - above,
below, to the left and right, in front of, and behind.  (I'm only
exaggerating a little.)  Buyers actually pay attention to (and
manufacturers
advertise) five-star driver and passenger protection scores.  We've come
a long way from the 1950s and "safety doesn't sell."  

ABS, stability control, and other similar features add some weight too,
though I don't know how much.

Regrettably some of these safety features rely on the vehicle body
computer, and from what I understand, many of them have fits if the ICE
isn't running.
When you convert such a car you either find a way to simulate the ICE
for that computer's sake, or at least some of those safety features (I
realize that some don't consider them desirable) just become dead
weight.

Another contributor to the blimping-out of small cars we might convert
is the heavy accessorizing that buyers now demand.  In 1975 you could
sell a small car with manual brakes and steering, roll-up windows,
manual door locks, and no air-con. I can remember when radios were
optional and at one time even heaters were extra cost items!  I haven't
seen such a car on offer in years.  Everything is tricked out with
convenience and appearance gimmicks.  Even the NMG has electric windows.


Power accessories not only add weight in themselves, but they require
more expense, weight, and space for power steering drive motors and
brake vacuum pumps when converting them.  

All that said, I suspect that much of the extra dead weight in modern
cars comes from large amounts of sound deadening and acoustic isolating
material.
The good news is that when you convert such a car to electric drive,
quite a lot of this muffling weight can be removed - just about all of
it, if you don't mind a bit of extra road noise.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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