nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing batteries

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nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing batteries

ed.cooley
>From Dec 18, 2007

You may have seen this already - but if it works out - it seems pretty
amazing.
Lead Acid: 50 miles.
Lithium Ion: 250 miles
These new batteries: ~ 2500 miles....(show me a gasoline or diesel car
that can go this far on a single 'tank'! wow!)

If lithium is 1/3 the weight of Lead Acid, and you're willing to live with
the weight - you could (presumably, if you could afford it) put 3x the
Lithium batteries on your vehicle, getting ~ 750 miles.

These new batteries: ~ 7500 miles... on a single charge.


http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1234/
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2008/january9/nanowire-010908.html


Stanford Report, December 18, 2007
Stanford's nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing ones
BY DAN STOBER

Stanford researchers have found a way to use silicon nanowires to reinvent
the rechargeable lithium-ion batteries that power laptops, iPods, video
cameras, cell phones, and countless other devices.

The new version, developed through research led by Yi Cui, assistant
professor of materials science and engineering, produces 10 times the
amount of electricity of existing lithium-ion, known as Li-ion, batteries.
A laptop that now runs on battery for two hours could operate for 20
hours, a boon to ocean-hopping business travelers.

"It's not a small improvement," Cui said. "It's a revolutionary
development."

The breakthrough is described in a paper, "High-performance lithium
battery anodes using silicon nanowires," published online Dec. 16 in
Nature Nanotechnology, written by Cui, his graduate chemistry student
Candace Chan and five others.

The greatly expanded storage capacity could make Li-ion batteries
attractive to electric car manufacturers. Cui suggested that they could
also be used in homes or offices to store electricity generated by rooftop
solar panels.

"Given the mature infrastructure behind silicon, this new technology can
be pushed to real life quickly," Cui said.

The electrical storage capacity of a Li-ion battery is limited by how much
lithium can be held in the battery's anode, which is typically made of
carbon. Silicon has a much higher capacity than carbon, but also has a
drawback.

Silicon placed in a battery swells as it absorbs positively charged
lithium atoms during charging, then shrinks during use (i.e., when playing
your iPod) as the lithium is drawn out of the silicon. This expand/shrink
cycle typically causes the silicon (often in the form of particles or a
thin film) to pulverize, degrading the performance of the battery.

Cui's battery gets around this problem with nanotechnology. The lithium is
stored in a forest of tiny silicon nanowires, each with a diameter
one-thousandth the thickness of a sheet of paper. The nanowires inflate
four times their normal size as they soak up lithium. But, unlike other
silicon shapes, they do not fracture.

Research on silicon in batteries began three decades ago. Chan explained:
"The people kind of gave up on it because the capacity wasn't high enough
and the cycle life wasn't good enough. And it was just because of the
shape they were using. It was just too big, and they couldn't undergo the
volume changes."

Then, along came silicon nanowires. "We just kind of put them together,"
Chan said.

For their experiments, Chan grew the nanowires on a stainless steel
substrate, providing an excellent electrical connection. "It was a
fantastic moment when Candace told me it was working," Cui said.

Cui said that a patent application has been filed. He is considering
formation of a company or an agreement with a battery manufacturer.
Manufacturing the nanowire batteries would require "one or two different
steps, but the process can certainly be scaled up," he added. "It's a well
understood process."

Also contributing to the paper in Nature Nanotechnology were Halin Peng
and Robert A. Huggins of Materials Science and Engineering at Stanford,
Gao Liu of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and Kevin McIlwrath and
Xiao Feng Zhang of the electron microscope division of Hitachi High
Technologies in Pleasanton, Calif.




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Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existingbatteries

(-Phil-)
I used to get excited about all this vaporware, but until someone
demonstrates a working prototype that can be peer-reviewed, it might as just
be another over-unity magnet motor.

I'm not nay-saying, but it's hard to get excited until they actually have
one people can look at.  If you could make such a battery, wouldn't you be
out showing it off?   I would!

-Phil
http://evalbum.com/1413

----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 6:46 AM
Subject: [EVDL] nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of
existingbatteries


> >From Dec 18, 2007
>
> You may have seen this already - but if it works out - it seems pretty
> amazing.
> Lead Acid: 50 miles.
> Lithium Ion: 250 miles
> These new batteries: ~ 2500 miles....(show me a gasoline or diesel car
> that can go this far on a single 'tank'! wow!)
>
> If lithium is 1/3 the weight of Lead Acid, and you're willing to live with
> the weight - you could (presumably, if you could afford it) put 3x the
> Lithium batteries on your vehicle, getting ~ 750 miles.
>
> These new batteries: ~ 7500 miles... on a single charge.
>
>
> http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1234/
> http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2008/january9/nanowire-010908.html
>
>
> Stanford Report, December 18, 2007
> Stanford's nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing ones
> BY DAN STOBER
>
> Stanford researchers have found a way to use silicon nanowires to reinvent
> the rechargeable lithium-ion batteries that power laptops, iPods, video
> cameras, cell phones, and countless other devices.
>
> The new version, developed through research led by Yi Cui, assistant
> professor of materials science and engineering, produces 10 times the
> amount of electricity of existing lithium-ion, known as Li-ion, batteries.
> A laptop that now runs on battery for two hours could operate for 20
> hours, a boon to ocean-hopping business travelers.
>
> "It's not a small improvement," Cui said. "It's a revolutionary
> development."
>
> The breakthrough is described in a paper, "High-performance lithium
> battery anodes using silicon nanowires," published online Dec. 16 in
> Nature Nanotechnology, written by Cui, his graduate chemistry student
> Candace Chan and five others.
>
> The greatly expanded storage capacity could make Li-ion batteries
> attractive to electric car manufacturers. Cui suggested that they could
> also be used in homes or offices to store electricity generated by rooftop
> solar panels.
>
> "Given the mature infrastructure behind silicon, this new technology can
> be pushed to real life quickly," Cui said.
>
> The electrical storage capacity of a Li-ion battery is limited by how much
> lithium can be held in the battery's anode, which is typically made of
> carbon. Silicon has a much higher capacity than carbon, but also has a
> drawback.
>
> Silicon placed in a battery swells as it absorbs positively charged
> lithium atoms during charging, then shrinks during use (i.e., when playing
> your iPod) as the lithium is drawn out of the silicon. This expand/shrink
> cycle typically causes the silicon (often in the form of particles or a
> thin film) to pulverize, degrading the performance of the battery.
>
> Cui's battery gets around this problem with nanotechnology. The lithium is
> stored in a forest of tiny silicon nanowires, each with a diameter
> one-thousandth the thickness of a sheet of paper. The nanowires inflate
> four times their normal size as they soak up lithium. But, unlike other
> silicon shapes, they do not fracture.
>
> Research on silicon in batteries began three decades ago. Chan explained:
> "The people kind of gave up on it because the capacity wasn't high enough
> and the cycle life wasn't good enough. And it was just because of the
> shape they were using. It was just too big, and they couldn't undergo the
> volume changes."
>
> Then, along came silicon nanowires. "We just kind of put them together,"
> Chan said.
>
> For their experiments, Chan grew the nanowires on a stainless steel
> substrate, providing an excellent electrical connection. "It was a
> fantastic moment when Candace told me it was working," Cui said.
>
> Cui said that a patent application has been filed. He is considering
> formation of a company or an agreement with a battery manufacturer.
> Manufacturing the nanowire batteries would require "one or two different
> steps, but the process can certainly be scaled up," he added. "It's a well
> understood process."
>
> Also contributing to the paper in Nature Nanotechnology were Halin Peng
> and Robert A. Huggins of Materials Science and Engineering at Stanford,
> Gao Liu of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and Kevin McIlwrath and
> Xiao Feng Zhang of the electron microscope division of Hitachi High
> Technologies in Pleasanton, Calif.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing batteries

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by ed.cooley
On 26 Dec 2007 at 9:46, [hidden email] wrote:

> These new batteries: ~ 2500 miles.

A lot of people forget side issues with such a development.  

First is whether it can be commercialized in our highly competitive business
environment, which tends to reward something between stasis and gradual,
incremental change.  

Second is a more practical issue for EVers - the amount of time and power
required to >fill< a battery of such capacity.

The latter first.  Suppose we actually could have an EV battery with a
capacity of 600 kWh.  Let's see what it would take to charge that battery.

The most common new home electrical service today is a 200 amp, 240 volt
one, capable of producing 48kW.  Suppose you had no electric water heater,
range, air-con, or space heat, and could devote half your capacity to
charging your EV.  The math is pretty straightforward.  At 25kW, charging a
600kWh battery would take at least 24 hours.  

Of course you probably wouldn't run the battery flat very often, but when
you did, most likely you'd have to charge at a commercial charging station
rather than at home.  

How long would you want to wait for that?  Suppose you wanted to charge this
battery to 80% in 30 minutes.  You would need 960kW of power - about the
maximum power of 20 normal homes, and probably the average power of about
60!  This would most likely be done during business hours, when grid load is
at its peak.  Not a problem for the first few hundred purchasers, but what
happens to the grid when we have 10,000 such EVs in service?  100,000?  
1,000,000?

Now as for commercialization, IF the technology proves usable, IF it scales,
IF it can be mass-produced, IF it can be made for a price that someone other
than NASA can afford, then we have the hurdle of safety.  I'm no
electrochemist, but my understanding is that one reason for the heat and
fire problems associated with lithium batteries is the very high energy and
power contained a small package with little square area to radiate waste
heat.  Multiply that by ten and you have a real challenge.  

None of the challenges is insurmountable, but again the question is, can you
solve the problems at a price that people are wiling to pay?  The ICE's
century of development has made it affordable in spite of its nightmarish
complexity (I sometimes compare it to the against-all-odds refinement of the
phonograph cartridge in the late 1970s).

Alas, the culture that allowed that development no longer exists in our
world. The "nanowire" battery will not have a century to become competitive.
 

Depending on how much it costs to implement, this battery could end up like
silver-zinc batteries - really an option only for the deepest pockets
(military and aerospace applications).  If it's successful there, and if
increased production can lower prices (meaning automated factories and low
cost of materials), then we might see it used in high-end portable
electronic devices such as cellular phones and computers.  I expect that an
EV application, if any, will come along appreciably later than those.

In sum, it's an exciting development, if true, but I suggest that you don't
wait for nanowire batteries for your EV.  Lead and perhaps various flavors
of lithum are available NOW and they WORK.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existingbatteries

Morgan LaMoore
In reply to this post by (-Phil-)
On Dec 26, 2007 9:56 AM, (-Phil-) <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I used to get excited about all this vaporware, but until someone
> demonstrates a working prototype that can be peer-reviewed, it might as just
> be another over-unity magnet motor.
>
> I'm not nay-saying, but it's hard to get excited until they actually have
> one people can look at.  If you could make such a battery, wouldn't you be
> out showing it off?   I would!

They can make a small version of such a battery in a lab. Even if
they're telling the truth (which I think they are), there isn't much
to show off yet.

In 10 years, if they can figure out how to mass-produce it and make it
affordable, then I will be extremely excited. For now, I can get
excited about the possibilities even though I know it'll be a while
before it's on the streets.

These energy densities would let electric actually compete with
gasoline properly; without range issues, it will be entirely economy,
and I think that means that EVs would win.

Although I think 7500 miles isn't going to happen; Tesla's 250 miles
weighs 900 pounds. I think it's more likely to get 500 miles to a
charge with 180 pounds of batteries that costs a lot less.

-Morgan LaMoore

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Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing batteries

Dan Frederiksen-2
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
I think you overlooked something David.
let's take a contrasty example. Lee Hart has given, as an example of
power consumption, that his car used 80V 120A at about 100km/h. that's
roughly 10kW.
with a phenomenal pack of 600kWh that's 60 straight hours at that power
rate. a single charge range of 6000 km. just maybe David, it won't
really be necessary to charge that up in 30 minutes : )  just because
you get a bigger pack you wont suddenly be driving 10 times as much.
your reaction is akin to complaining about where to put the 20 ton gold
they dumped in your driveway. it's a non issue.

I'd go out on a limb and guess they wouldn't put 600kWh packs in cars. I
think we will end up at around 50kWh almost no matter how good the
technology gets, maybe even much less if the charging infrastructure and
battery lucidity gets really good.

I don't expect they will be able to make 1700Wh/kg batteries, we still
don't know what the 10x was in relation to. it could be compared to lead
at 30Wh/kg for all we know. the joker in charge hasn't seen fit to
answer clarifying questions. I also suspect that the 10x was in
reference to a single battery parameter and not necessarily translate to
10x better for the entire battery. maybe a practical battery would land
on 400Wh/kg which would also be quite good. it could also be the case
that they hit insurmountable problems like explosive danger. I wouldn't
want to be in a car where a 600kWh pack melted down. taking a swim in a
iron furnace might be a welcomed relaxation compared to it.

Dan


EVDL Administrator wrote:

> A lot of people forget side issues with such a development.  
> Suppose we actually could have an EV battery with a
> capacity of 600 kWh.  Let's see what it would take to charge that battery.
>
> The most common new home electrical service today is a 200 amp, 240 volt
> one, capable of producing 48kW.  Suppose you had no electric water heater,
> range, air-con, or space heat, and could devote half your capacity to
> charging your EV.  The math is pretty straightforward.  At 25kW, charging a
> 600kWh battery would take at least 24 hours.  
>  

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Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing batteries

nicklogan
In reply to this post by ed.cooley

Cui said that a patent application has been filed. He is considering
formation of a company or an agreement with a battery manufacturer.
Manufacturing the nanowire batteries would require "one or two different
steps, but the process can certainly be scaled up," he added. "It's a well
understood process."

Also contributing to the paper in Nature Nanotechnology were Halin Peng
and Robert A. Huggins of Materials Science and Engineering at Stanford,
Gao Liu of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and Kevin McIlwrath and
Xiao Feng Zhang of the electron microscope division of Hitachi High
Technologies in Pleasanton, Calif.



Hopefully , these links will work ok but anyone that want's to see the charge/discharge curves can look here:

http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nnano.2007.411_F2.html

The original paper and supplemental info are here :

http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nnano.2007.411.html
http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/nnano.2007.411-s1.pdf

Many factors will determine whether the technology ever makes it to the real world (as David R. already pointed out), but although the analysis techniques are exotic the growth methods used are well understood and scalable. The use of gold as a catalyst is in minuscule quantities and other metals are also usable as catalysts to grow on 304 stainless.

Of course, I'm still waiting for my flying car like everyone else :>), but this looks hopeful.
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Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing batteries

John Thornton
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
EVDL Administrator wrote:

> On 26 Dec 2007 at 9:46, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>  
>> These new batteries: ~ 2500 miles.
>>    
>
> A lot of people forget side issues with such a development.  
>
> First is whether it can be commercialized in our highly competitive business
> environment, which tends to reward something between stasis and gradual,
> incremental change.  
>
> Second is a more practical issue for EVers - the amount of time and power
> required to >fill< a battery of such capacity.
>
> The latter first.  Suppose we actually could have an EV battery with a
> capacity of 600 kWh.  Let's see what it would take to charge that battery.
>
> The most common new home electrical service today is a 200 amp, 240 volt
> one, capable of producing 48kW.  Suppose you had no electric water heater,
> range, air-con, or space heat, and could devote half your capacity to
> charging your EV.  The math is pretty straightforward.  At 25kW, charging a
> 600kWh battery would take at least 24 hours.  
>
> Of course you probably wouldn't run the battery flat very often, but when
> you did, most likely you'd have to charge at a commercial charging station
> rather than at home.  
>
> How long would you want to wait for that?  Suppose you wanted to charge this
> battery to 80% in 30 minutes.  You would need 960kW of power - about the
> maximum power of 20 normal homes, and probably the average power of about
> 60!  This would most likely be done during business hours, when grid load is
> at its peak.  Not a problem for the first few hundred purchasers, but what
> happens to the grid when we have 10,000 such EVs in service?  100,000?  
> 1,000,000?
>
> Now as for commercialization, IF the technology proves usable, IF it scales,
> IF it can be mass-produced, IF it can be made for a price that someone other
> than NASA can afford, then we have the hurdle of safety.  I'm no
> electrochemist, but my understanding is that one reason for the heat and
> fire problems associated with lithium batteries is the very high energy and
> power contained a small package with little square area to radiate waste
> heat.  Multiply that by ten and you have a real challenge.  
>
> None of the challenges is insurmountable, but again the question is, can you
> solve the problems at a price that people are wiling to pay?  The ICE's
> century of development has made it affordable in spite of its nightmarish
> complexity (I sometimes compare it to the against-all-odds refinement of the
> phonograph cartridge in the late 1970s).
>
> Alas, the culture that allowed that development no longer exists in our
> world. The "nanowire" battery will not have a century to become competitive.
>  
>
> Depending on how much it costs to implement, this battery could end up like
> silver-zinc batteries - really an option only for the deepest pockets
> (military and aerospace applications).  If it's successful there, and if
> increased production can lower prices (meaning automated factories and low
> cost of materials), then we might see it used in high-end portable
> electronic devices such as cellular phones and computers.  I expect that an
> EV application, if any, will come along appreciably later than those.
>
> In sum, it's an exciting development, if true, but I suggest that you don't
> wait for nanowire batteries for your EV.  Lead and perhaps various flavors
> of lithum are available NOW and they WORK.  
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator

You're missing a bit. The University actually built a functional battery
that can be made using currently manufactured parts even thought they
did make some of the parts themselves.
This isn't carbon nanotubes. The parts currently manufactured aren't
manufactured in the scale needed but much of that work is already done.
The extremely small size of the nanowire material greatly decreases the
charge time by a rather large factor. How much depends on many things
but your math above takes none of them into account. We'll settle for
"notably shorter recharge times" for right now. It is theoretically
possible to design them with just a few seconds full recharge time.
The exploding battery problem is not directly related to heat. More
correctly, researchers don't know exactly why approximately 1 in 5M
explode or catch fire. Best guess right now is impurities in the
manufacturing process that cause short circuits. Second best is a
heretofore unknown chemical reaction.
I'm not sure why you imagine EV applications would come last or even
later. Look at Toshibas new SCiB that begins shipping next year. They
are for EV's before laptops, ipods, whatever gizmo's. What compelling
argument exists to assume Stanford's battery be different?
I do however agree that no one should wait for future technologies to
build their own EV. That isn't how real world items evolve.
We should take a look at automobile development. Look how crude the
first autos were. People didn't wait for improved technology, they built
with what they had and that led to process and materials development.
With a sped up time-frame that is the proper development model.

John Thornton

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Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing batteries

storm connors
John,
The point is that whatever energy you take out has to be put back in
(plus a little). People ask how long it takes to charge my EV. The
answer is that it really depends on the supply. My limit is 15 amps on
110v. It doesn't matter a damn about the battery chemistry. If I had
more power available, I could charge a lot faster.

On Dec 26, 2007 3:57 PM, John Thornton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>

>
> You're missing a bit. The University actually built a functional battery
> that can be made using currently manufactured parts even thought they
> did make some of the parts themselves.
> This isn't carbon nanotubes. The parts currently manufactured aren't
> manufactured in the scale needed but much of that work is already done.
> The extremely small size of the nanowire material greatly decreases the
> charge time by a rather large factor. How much depends on many things
> but your math above takes none of them into account. We'll settle for
> "notably shorter recharge times" for right now. It is theoretically
> possible to design them with just a few seconds full recharge time.
> The exploding battery problem is not directly related to heat. More
> correctly, researchers don't know exactly why approximately 1 in 5M
> explode or catch fire. Best guess right now is impurities in the
> manufacturing process that cause short circuits. Second best is a
> heretofore unknown chemical reaction.
> I'm not sure why you imagine EV applications would come last or even
> later. Look at Toshibas new SCiB that begins shipping next year. They
> are for EV's before laptops, ipods, whatever gizmo's. What compelling
> argument exists to assume Stanford's battery be different?
> I do however agree that no one should wait for future technologies to
> build their own EV. That isn't how real world items evolve.
> We should take a look at automobile development. Look how crude the
> first autos were. People didn't wait for improved technology, they built
> with what they had and that led to process and materials development.
> With a sped up time-frame that is the proper development model.
>
> John Thornton
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

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Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing batteries

Tony Hwang-2
In reply to this post by Dan Frederiksen-2
That's NOT a non-issue. It happens to me a lot, really bothersome when I
find 20 tons of gold people dump on my driveway. Wish they'd dump their
trash elsewhere. It's expensive to remove and store, but at least I can pay
the movers with two ounces of that 20 tons (0.0003% of 20 tons).

                          - Tony

On Dec 26, 2007 10:47 AM, Dan Frederiksen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> your reaction is akin to complaining about where to put the 20 ton gold
> they dumped in your driveway. it's a non issue.
>
>
>
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Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existingbatteries

Bob Rice-2

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hwang" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of
existingbatteries


> That's NOT a non-issue. It happens to me a lot, really bothersome when I
> find 20 tons of gold people dump on my driveway. Wish they'd dump their
> trash elsewhere. It's expensive to remove and store, but at least I can
> pay
> the movers with two ounces of that 20 tons (0.0003% of 20 tons).
>
>                          - Tony
>
> On Dec 26, 2007 10:47 AM, Dan Frederiksen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> your reaction is akin to complaining about where to put the 20 ton gold
>> they dumped in your driveway. it's a non issue.

    Exactly. The range charge would come with the car from the factory. You
probably wouldn't use it 'til you drive out to PDX from CT to go to the
Wayland Races?You would plugitin EVery night anyhow, to put back the 30
miles you used that day?Be like keeping a bank balance afloat. There are
daze you don't EVen use your car, too.

   I'll take it. I think I could adopt<g>!?

    See ya

    Bob.........no more Led Sled!
>

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Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge ofexistingbatteries

mos6507-2
Remember that for global changes to infrastructure, massive capacity is
required.  We're dealing with a lot of resource bottlenecks on the earth
right now.  For instance, I don't think there is enough platinum in the
world to turn every car on the road into a fuel cell vehicle.  And there
isn't enough indium in the world for CIGS thin film solar panels.  There
isn't enough ruthenium to make dye sensitive solar cells.  There isn't
enough arable land to make enough ethanol. And on and on...  All these
things seem fine when they start out, but they hit the wall at some point.
The real innovation comes when scientists find ways to substitute more
common materials and/or get far greater efficiency.

So being able to electrify automobiles using 5x-10x smaller battery packs
will allow the auto industry to transition to electric a lot faster and not
hit the wall on lithium supply so quickly (assuming cost parity of course).


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Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing batteries

Frank John
In reply to this post by ed.cooley
I figure that as energy density goes up it opens the door to interchangeable packs.  Charging could then be optionally done at commercial stations.  Very exciting!


----- Original Message ----
From: EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:12:33 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing batteries


A lot of people forget side issues with such a development.  






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Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing batteries

kEVs
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
list and all ev folks
Does anyone know how to contact Dave Cloud?
if so please respond on or off list
TIA
keith



--- EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]
>



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Dave Cloud

kEVs

--- keith vansickle <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> list and all ev folks
> Does anyone know how to contact Dave Cloud?
> if so please respond on or off list
> TIA
> keith
>
>
>
> --- EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]
> >
>
>
>
>      
>
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> Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
>
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
>
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