poor 2011 Leaf performance

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poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my 2011
Leaf ?

Temp about 45F
Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level is
9 capacity bars)
Average 3.2 miles / kWh
Duration about 1 hr.
Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.

For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
Total: 5.75 kWh.

According to
https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.

Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, the
battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).

45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.

Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total
range.

What happened to the other 4 kWh?

And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had
miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.

Peri
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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Capacity bars are not linear.
The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken (quoting from memory)
So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so less than 15kWh.
Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12 quickly to 10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at work with still 3 bars left….
I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X bars is so many kWh left.
GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much better judge what your Leaf is doing.
Hope this helps,
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Peri Hartman
Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my 2011
Leaf ?

Temp about 45F
Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level is
9 capacity bars)
Average 3.2 miles / kWh
Duration about 1 hr.
Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.

For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
Total: 5.75 kWh.

According to
https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.

Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, the
battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).

45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.

Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total
range.

What happened to the other 4 kWh?

And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had
miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.

Peri
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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
 is there something Leaf Spy....    to see if you have a weak cell or
other losses ?

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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The range in my Mitsubishi i-MiEV drops about 10% in cold weather too.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2018, at 8:13 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my 2011 Leaf ?
>
> Temp about 45F
> Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
> "other systems" drawing about .25 kW
> Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level is 9 capacity bars)
> Average 3.2 miles / kWh
> Duration about 1 hr.
> Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.
>
> For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
> For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
> Total: 5.75 kWh.
>
> According to
> https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
> 5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
>
> Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, the battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
>
> 45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
> Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.
>
> Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total range.
>
> What happened to the other 4 kWh?
>
> And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.
>
> Peri
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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Um, I'm getting a drop closer to 50%.

------ Original Message ------
From: "paul dove" <[hidden email]>
To: "Peri Hartman" <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" <[hidden email]>
Cc:
Sent: 05-Dec-18 3:19:24 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

>The range in my Mitsubishi i-MiEV drops about 10% in cold weather too.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>>On Dec 4, 2018, at 8:13 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my
>>2011 Leaf ?
>>
>>Temp about 45F
>>Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
>>"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
>>Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level
>>is 9 capacity bars)
>>Average 3.2 miles / kWh
>>Duration about 1 hr.
>>Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.
>>
>>For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
>>For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
>>Total: 5.75 kWh.
>>
>>According to
>>https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
>>5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
>>
>>Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9,
>>the battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
>>
>>45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
>>Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.
>>
>>Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total
>>range.
>>
>>What happened to the other 4 kWh?
>>
>>And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had
>>miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.
>>
>>Peri
>>-------------- next part --------------
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>>URL:
>><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181205/ac242f27/attachment.html>
>>_______________________________________________
>>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>

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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Cor,

So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
you're assuming is
100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?

In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.

My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the table in
the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of my
calculations are unchanged.

Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.

If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend it, I
might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least I'd
know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

>Capacity bars are not linear.
>The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
>Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken (quoting
>from memory)
>So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so less
>than 15kWh.
>Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
>My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12 quickly to
>10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
>Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at work
>with still 3 bars left….
>I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X bars
>is so many kWh left.
>GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much better
>judge what your Leaf is doing.
>Hope this helps,
>Cor.
>
>Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
>From: Peri Hartman via EV
>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Cc: Peri Hartman
>Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>
>Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my
>2011
>Leaf ?
>
>Temp about 45F
>Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
>"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
>Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level is
>9 capacity bars)
>Average 3.2 miles / kWh
>Duration about 1 hr.
>Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.
>
>For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
>For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
>Total: 5.75 kWh.
>
>According to
>https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
>5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
>
>Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, the
>battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
>
>45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
>Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.
>
>Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total
>range.
>
>What happened to the other 4 kWh?
>
>And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had
>miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.
>
>Peri
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>
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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly over
time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
better again.

I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter and
you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be able
to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these things.
I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to work
(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge at
home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to home
in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Cor,
>
> So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
> you're assuming is
> 100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?
>
> In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
> 100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
> or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.
>
> My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the table in
> the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of my
> calculations are unchanged.
>
> Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.
>
> If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend it, I
> might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least I'd
> know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?
>
> Peri
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>
> >Capacity bars are not linear.
> >The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
> >Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken (quoting
> >from memory)
> >So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so less
> >than 15kWh.
> >Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
> >My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12 quickly to
> >10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
> >Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at work
> >with still 3 bars left….
> >I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X bars
> >is so many kWh left.
> >GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much better
> >judge what your Leaf is doing.
> >Hope this helps,
> >Cor.
> >
> >Sent from Mail for Windows 10
> >
> >From: Peri Hartman via EV
> >Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
> >To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> >Cc: Peri Hartman
> >Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
> >
> >Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my
> >2011
> >Leaf ?
> >
> >Temp about 45F
> >Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
> >"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
> >Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level is
> >9 capacity bars)
> >Average 3.2 miles / kWh
> >Duration about 1 hr.
> >Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.
> >
> >For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
> >For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
> >Total: 5.75 kWh.
> >
> >According to
> >https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
> >5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
> >
> >Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, the
> >battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
> >
> >45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
> >Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.
> >
> >Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total
> >range.
> >
> >What happened to the other 4 kWh?
> >
> >And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had
> >miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.
> >
> >Peri
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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Thanks, Collin.
That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Collin Kidder" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[hidden email]>
Cc:
Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

>I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
>miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
>The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
>Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
>be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
>they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly over
>time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
>better again.
>
>I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter and
>you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be able
>to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these things.
>I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to work
>(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge at
>home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
>work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
>miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to home
>in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
>with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.
>
>On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>
>>Cor,
>>
>>So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
>>you're assuming is
>>100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?
>>
>>In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
>>100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
>>or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.
>>
>>My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the table
>>in
>>the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of my
>>calculations are unchanged.
>>
>>Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.
>>
>>If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend it,
>>I
>>might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least I'd
>>know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?
>>
>>Peri
>>
>>------ Original Message ------
>>From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
>>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>>Cc: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
>>Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>
>> >Capacity bars are not linear.
>> >The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
>> >Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken (quoting
>> >from memory)
>> >So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so less
>> >than 15kWh.
>> >Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
>> >My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12 quickly
>>to
>> >10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
>> >Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at work
>> >with still 3 bars left….
>> >I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X
>>bars
>> >is so many kWh left.
>> >GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much better
>> >judge what your Leaf is doing.
>> >Hope this helps,
>> >Cor.
>> >
>> >Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>> >
>> >From: Peri Hartman via EV
>> >Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
>> >To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> >Cc: Peri Hartman
>> >Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>> >
>> >Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my
>> >2011
>> >Leaf ?
>> >
>> >Temp about 45F
>> >Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
>> >"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
>> >Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level
>>is
>> >9 capacity bars)
>> >Average 3.2 miles / kWh
>> >Duration about 1 hr.
>> >Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.
>> >
>> >For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
>> >For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
>> >Total: 5.75 kWh.
>> >
>> >According to
>> >https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
>> >5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
>> >
>> >Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9,
>>the
>> >battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
>> >
>> >45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
>> >Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around
>>17.
>> >
>> >Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total
>> >range.
>> >
>> >What happened to the other 4 kWh?
>> >
>> >And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had
>> >miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.
>> >
>> >Peri
>> >-------------- next part --------------
>> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> ><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181205/ac242f27/attachment.html>
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>> >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> >
>> >
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>> >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> >
>>
>>_______________________________________________
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>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>

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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and a
quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed health
and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 kWh
capacity.

You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise,
including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake issues
are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because the brakes
don't get warmed/worked out much.


On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks, Collin.
> That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
> The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
> Peri
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Collin Kidder" <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> <[hidden email]>
> Cc:
> Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>
> >I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
> >miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
> >The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
> >Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
> >be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
> >they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly over
> >time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
> >better again.
> >
> >I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter and
> >you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be able
> >to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these things.
> >I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to work
> >(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge at
> >home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
> >work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
> >miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to home
> >in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
> >with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.
> >
> >On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]>
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>Cor,
> >>
> >>So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
> >>you're assuming is
> >>100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?
> >>
> >>In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
> >>100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
> >>or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.
> >>
> >>My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the table
> >>in
> >>the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of my
> >>calculations are unchanged.
> >>
> >>Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.
> >>
> >>If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend it,
> >>I
> >>might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least I'd
> >>know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?
> >>
> >>Peri
> >>
> >>------ Original Message ------
> >>From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
> >>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> >>Cc: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> >>Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
> >>
> >> >Capacity bars are not linear.
> >> >The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
> >> >Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken (quoting
> >> >from memory)
> >> >So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so less
> >> >than 15kWh.
> >> >Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
> >> >My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12 quickly
> >>to
> >> >10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
> >> >Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at work
> >> >with still 3 bars left….
> >> >I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X
> >>bars
> >> >is so many kWh left.
> >> >GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much better
> >> >judge what your Leaf is doing.
> >> >Hope this helps,
> >> >Cor.
> >> >
> >> >Sent from Mail for Windows 10
> >> >
> >> >From: Peri Hartman via EV
> >> >Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
> >> >To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> >> >Cc: Peri Hartman
> >> >Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
> >> >
> >> >Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my
> >> >2011
> >> >Leaf ?
> >> >
> >> >Temp about 45F
> >> >Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
> >> >"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
> >> >Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level
> >>is
> >> >9 capacity bars)
> >> >Average 3.2 miles / kWh
> >> >Duration about 1 hr.
> >> >Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.
> >> >
> >> >For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
> >> >For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
> >> >Total: 5.75 kWh.
> >> >
> >> >According to
> >> >https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
> >> >5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
> >> >
> >> >Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9,
> >>the
> >> >battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
> >> >
> >> >45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
> >> >Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around
> >>17.
> >> >
> >> >Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total
> >> >range.
> >> >
> >> >What happened to the other 4 kWh?
> >> >
> >> >And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had
> >> >miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.
> >> >
> >> >Peri
> >> >-------------- next part --------------
> >> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> >URL:
> >> ><
> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181205/ac242f27/attachment.html
> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >> >Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> >> >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >-------------- next part --------------
> >> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> >URL:
> >> ><
> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181204/67c9fb0f/attachment.html
> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >> >Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> >> >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >> >
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> >>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Getting LeafSpy and an OBD2 adapter: I've thought of that before, sounds
like a good idea. I just looked at the app description and they no
longer make any recommendations of brands. Anyone care to make a
recommendation of one they bought recently and works with the Leaf?

As for brake drag, it's possible, but wouldn't that be reflected in the
kWh used? Besides, it seems that 3.2 miles / kWh is pretty good for
winter city driving.

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Haudy Kazemi" <[hidden email]>
To: "Peri Hartman" <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" <[hidden email]>
Cc:
Sent: 06-Dec-18 7:23:42 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

>Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and a
>quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed
>health and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16
>kWh capacity.
>
>You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise,
>including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake
>issues are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because
>the brakes don't get warmed/worked out much.
>
>
>On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>Thanks, Collin.
>>That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
>>The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
>>Peri
>>
>>------ Original Message ------
>>From: "Collin Kidder" <[hidden email]>
>>To: [hidden email]; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
>><[hidden email]>
>>Cc:
>>Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>
>> >I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
>> >miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
>> >The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
>> >Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
>> >be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
>> >they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly
>>over
>> >time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
>> >better again.
>> >
>> >I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter
>>and
>> >you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be able
>> >to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these
>>things.
>> >I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to
>>work
>> >(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge at
>> >home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
>> >work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
>> >miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to home
>> >in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
>> >with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.
>> >
>> >On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV
>><[hidden email]>
>> >wrote:
>> >>
>> >>Cor,
>> >>
>> >>So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
>> >>you're assuming is
>> >>100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?
>> >>
>> >>In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
>> >>100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
>> >>or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.
>> >>
>> >>My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the
>>table
>> >>in
>> >>the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of
>>my
>> >>calculations are unchanged.
>> >>
>> >>Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.
>> >>
>> >>If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend
>>it,
>> >>I
>> >>might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least I'd
>> >>know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?
>> >>
>> >>Peri
>> >>
>> >>------ Original Message ------
>> >>From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
>> >>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>> >>Cc: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
>> >>Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
>> >>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>> >>
>> >> >Capacity bars are not linear.
>> >> >The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
>> >> >Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken
>>(quoting
>> >> >from memory)
>> >> >So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so
>>less
>> >> >than 15kWh.
>> >> >Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
>> >> >My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12
>>quickly
>> >>to
>> >> >10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
>> >> >Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at
>>work
>> >> >with still 3 bars left….
>> >> >I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X
>> >>bars
>> >> >is so many kWh left.
>> >> >GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much
>>better
>> >> >judge what your Leaf is doing.
>> >> >Hope this helps,
>> >> >Cor.
>> >> >
>> >> >Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>> >> >
>> >> >From: Peri Hartman via EV
>> >> >Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
>> >> >To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> >> >Cc: Peri Hartman
>> >> >Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>> >> >
>> >> >Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of
>>my
>> >> >2011
>> >> >Leaf ?
>> >> >
>> >> >Temp about 45F
>> >> >Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
>> >> >"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
>> >> >Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge
>>level
>> >>is
>> >> >9 capacity bars)
>> >> >Average 3.2 miles / kWh
>> >> >Duration about 1 hr.
>> >> >Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage
>>meter.
>> >> >
>> >> >For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
>> >> >For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
>> >> >Total: 5.75 kWh.
>> >> >
>> >> >According to
>> >>
>> >https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
>> >> >5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
>> >> >
>> >> >Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and
>>9,
>> >>the
>> >> >battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
>> >> >
>> >> >45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
>> >> >Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around
>> >>17.
>> >> >
>> >> >Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated
>>total
>> >> >range.
>> >> >
>> >> >What happened to the other 4 kWh?
>> >> >
>> >> >And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has
>>had
>> >> >miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.
>> >> >
>> >> >Peri
>> >> >-------------- next part --------------
>> >> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> >> >URL:
>> >>
>> ><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181205/ac242f27/attachment.html>
>> >> >_______________________________________________
>> >> >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> >> >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> >> >Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>> >> >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >-------------- next part --------------
>> >> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> >> >URL:
>> >>
>> ><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181204/67c9fb0f/attachment.html>
>> >> >_______________________________________________
>> >> >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> >> >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> >> >Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>> >> >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> >>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> >>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>> >>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> >>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
There is another factor: 14 miles in one hour indicates to me a lot of
stop start running and this can have a serious effect on the efficiency
of the car.

I do notice that stop start driving is not as efficient as cruising and
there is little or no regen on braking. End result is a 15% difference
is consumption in my experience.

I can use less energy taking a longer route that has no speed bumps
compared to one with them where I have to slow down and accelerate from.

Although my car is a conversion, I do have very good coulomb counting
instrumentation of what goes out and into the batteries and on the
chargers and these agree within 1%.  I also have a voltage system that
monitors the voltage and controls engaging Turbo mode if  that will
force the battery voltage to drop below the BMS panic level. What is
interesting is that the coulomb counting is pretty well consistent but
the voltage representation can vary as much as 20%.  LiION batteries are
very difficult to measure SOC from the voltage except for the two extremes.

So what happens is that the coulomb count is ok but the capacity
estimate from the voltage can and does vary.

So add all these factors up and it can explain where the missing power
has gone.

I would also expect to use more than 1 kw for heating.

Definitely worth getting more accurate data.



On 06/12/2018 15:23, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

> Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and a
> quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed health
> and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 kWh
> capacity.
>
> You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise,
> including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake issues
> are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because the brakes
> don't get warmed/worked out much.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Collin.
>> That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
>> The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
>> Peri
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "Collin Kidder" <[hidden email]>
>> To: [hidden email]; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
>> <[hidden email]>
>> Cc:
>> Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>
>>> I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
>>> miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
>>> The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
>>> Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
>>> be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
>>> they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly over
>>> time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
>>> better again.
>>>
>>> I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter and
>>> you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be able
>>> to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these things.
>>> I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to work
>>> (there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge at
>>> home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
>>> work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
>>> miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to home
>>> in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
>>> with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Cor,
>>>>
>>>> So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
>>>> you're assuming is
>>>> 100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?
>>>>
>>>> In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
>>>> 100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
>>>> or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.
>>>>
>>>> My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the table
>>>> in
>>>> the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of my
>>>> calculations are unchanged.
>>>>
>>>> Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.
>>>>
>>>> If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend it,
>>>> I
>>>> might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least I'd
>>>> know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?
>>>>
>>>> Peri
>>>>
>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>> From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
>>>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>>>> Cc: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
>>>> Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>>
>>>>> Capacity bars are not linear.
>>>>> The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
>>>>> Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken (quoting
>>>> >from memory)
>>>>> So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so less
>>>>> than 15kWh.
>>>>> Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
>>>>> My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12 quickly
>>>> to
>>>>> 10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
>>>>> Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at work
>>>>> with still 3 bars left….
>>>>> I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X
>>>> bars
>>>>> is so many kWh left.
>>>>> GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much better
>>>>> judge what your Leaf is doing.
>>>>> Hope this helps,
>>>>> Cor.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Peri Hartman via EV
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
>>>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>>>> Cc: Peri Hartman
>>>>> Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my
>>>>> 2011
>>>>> Leaf ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Temp about 45F
>>>>> Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
>>>>> "other systems" drawing about .25 kW
>>>>> Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level
>>>> is
>>>>> 9 capacity bars)
>>>>> Average 3.2 miles / kWh
>>>>> Duration about 1 hr.
>>>>> Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.
>>>>>
>>>>> For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
>>>>> For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
>>>>> Total: 5.75 kWh.
>>>>>
>>>>> According to
>>>>> https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
>>>>> 5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
>>>>>
>>>>> Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9,
>>>> the
>>>>> battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
>>>>>
>>>>> 45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
>>>>> Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around
>>>> 17.
>>>>> Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total
>>>>> range.
>>>>>
>>>>> What happened to the other 4 kWh?
>>>>>
>>>>> And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had
>>>>> miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peri
>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>>>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>>>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
So, Steve, are you inferring the the 3.2 miles / kWh number could be
inaccurate? If it's reasonably accurate, it becomes irrelevant on how
efficiently I'm driving (yes, stop & go makes a big difference).

I agree, my capacity and remaining charge estimates may be off. That's
where the LeafSpy would help. Again, anyone care to recommend a ODB2
device?

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Steve Heath" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>; "Peri
Hartman" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Haudy Kazemi" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 06-Dec-18 8:00:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

>There is another factor: 14 miles in one hour indicates to me a lot of
>stop start running and this can have a serious effect on the efficiency
>of the car.
>
>I do notice that stop start driving is not as efficient as cruising and
>there is little or no regen on braking. End result is a 15% difference
>is consumption in my experience.
>
>I can use less energy taking a longer route that has no speed bumps
>compared to one with them where I have to slow down and accelerate
>from.
>
>Although my car is a conversion, I do have very good coulomb counting
>instrumentation of what goes out and into the batteries and on the
>chargers and these agree within 1%.  I also have a voltage system that
>monitors the voltage and controls engaging Turbo mode if  that will
>force the battery voltage to drop below the BMS panic level. What is
>interesting is that the coulomb counting is pretty well consistent but
>the voltage representation can vary as much as 20%.  LiION batteries
>are very difficult to measure SOC from the voltage except for the two
>extremes.
>
>So what happens is that the coulomb count is ok but the capacity
>estimate from the voltage can and does vary.
>
>So add all these factors up and it can explain where the missing power
>has gone.
>
>I would also expect to use more than 1 kw for heating.
>
>Definitely worth getting more accurate data.
>
>
>
>On 06/12/2018 15:23, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
>>Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and a
>>quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed
>>health
>>and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 kWh
>>capacity.
>>
>>You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise,
>>including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake
>>issues
>>are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because the
>>brakes
>>don't get warmed/worked out much.
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Thanks, Collin.
>>>That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
>>>The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
>>>Peri
>>>
>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>From: "Collin Kidder" <[hidden email]>
>>>To: [hidden email]; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
>>><[hidden email]>
>>>Cc:
>>>Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>
>>>>I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
>>>>miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
>>>>The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
>>>>Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
>>>>be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
>>>>they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly
>>>>over
>>>>time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
>>>>better again.
>>>>
>>>>I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter
>>>>and
>>>>you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be
>>>>able
>>>>to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these
>>>>things.
>>>>I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to
>>>>work
>>>>(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge
>>>>at
>>>>home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
>>>>work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
>>>>miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to
>>>>home
>>>>in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
>>>>with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV
>>>><[hidden email]>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>>Cor,
>>>>>
>>>>>So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
>>>>>you're assuming is
>>>>>100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?
>>>>>
>>>>>In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
>>>>>100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
>>>>>or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.
>>>>>
>>>>>My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the
>>>>>table
>>>>>in
>>>>>the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of
>>>>>my
>>>>>calculations are unchanged.
>>>>>
>>>>>Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>>If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend
>>>>>it,
>>>>>I
>>>>>might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least
>>>>>I'd
>>>>>know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?
>>>>>
>>>>>Peri
>>>>>
>>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>>From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>Cc: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>>>
>>>>>>Capacity bars are not linear.
>>>>>>The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
>>>>>>Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken
>>>>>>(quoting
>>>>> >from memory)
>>>>>>So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so
>>>>>>less
>>>>>>than 15kWh.
>>>>>>Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
>>>>>>My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12
>>>>>>quickly
>>>>>to
>>>>>>10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
>>>>>>Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at
>>>>>>work
>>>>>>with still 3 bars left….
>>>>>>I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X
>>>>>bars
>>>>>>is so many kWh left.
>>>>>>GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much
>>>>>>better
>>>>>>judge what your Leaf is doing.
>>>>>>Hope this helps,
>>>>>>Cor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>>>>
>>>>>>From: Peri Hartman via EV
>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
>>>>>>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>>>>>Cc: Peri Hartman
>>>>>>Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of
>>>>>>my
>>>>>>2011
>>>>>>Leaf ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Temp about 45F
>>>>>>Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
>>>>>>"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
>>>>>>Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge
>>>>>>level
>>>>>is
>>>>>>9 capacity bars)
>>>>>>Average 3.2 miles / kWh
>>>>>>Duration about 1 hr.
>>>>>>Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage
>>>>>>meter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
>>>>>>For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
>>>>>>Total: 5.75 kWh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>According to
>>>>>>https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
>>>>>>5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and
>>>>>>9,
>>>>>the
>>>>>>battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
>>>>>>Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around
>>>>>17.
>>>>>>Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated
>>>>>>total
>>>>>>range.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What happened to the other 4 kWh?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has
>>>>>>had
>>>>>>miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Peri
>>>>>>-------------- next part --------------
>>>>>>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>>>>URL:
>>>>>><
>>>http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181205/ac242f27/attachment.html
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>>>>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>>>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>>>>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-------------- next part --------------
>>>>>>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>>>>URL:
>>>>>><
>>>http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181204/67c9fb0f/attachment.html
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>>>>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>>>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>>>>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>>>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>>>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>>
>>-------------- next part --------------
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>><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181206/500b6fe9/attachment.html>
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>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>

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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
It could well be. The charts you refer to have so many caveats that the
figures are only a very rough guide.  This is one of the major problem
of calculating range.

The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average
is 190 and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the
distance. i.e. measuring the amount of power supplied by the batteries
to travel the distance. This is not the same as the amount of power from
the plug to charge the batteries nor is it the same power that the motor
uses which causes further complications. The distances btw are also near
the theoretical maximum that my battery pack can support so that the
effect of the battery capacity curve cancels out.

If I use the capacity used based on voltage then it can get very silly.
I was getting figures of 600-700 w/mile because the voltage vs soc is
non linear. I could drive 25% of the range and the capacity would drop
to 50%. This did not make sense so I stopped using them and fitted
coulomb counters. I do use the voltage to predict low battery but the
rest of the data is just a rough guide. The gauge does  look pretty on
the dash though.

Get the Leafspy and start collecting your own data and use that to build
up the values for your car. That will indicate exactly what is happening.


Cheers

Steve


On 06/12/2018 16:24, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> So, Steve, are you inferring the the 3.2 miles / kWh number could be
> inaccurate? If it's reasonably accurate, it becomes irrelevant on how
> efficiently I'm driving (yes, stop & go makes a big difference).
>
> I agree, my capacity and remaining charge estimates may be off. That's
> where the LeafSpy would help. Again, anyone care to recommend a ODB2
> device?
>
> Peri
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Steve Heath" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>; "Peri
> Hartman" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Haudy Kazemi" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 06-Dec-18 8:00:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>
>> There is another factor: 14 miles in one hour indicates to me a lot
>> of stop start running and this can have a serious effect on the
>> efficiency of the car.
>>
>> I do notice that stop start driving is not as efficient as cruising
>> and there is little or no regen on braking. End result is a 15%
>> difference is consumption in my experience.
>>
>> I can use less energy taking a longer route that has no speed bumps
>> compared to one with them where I have to slow down and accelerate from.
>>
>> Although my car is a conversion, I do have very good coulomb counting
>> instrumentation of what goes out and into the batteries and on the
>> chargers and these agree within 1%.  I also have a voltage system
>> that monitors the voltage and controls engaging Turbo mode if  that
>> will force the battery voltage to drop below the BMS panic level.
>> What is interesting is that the coulomb counting is pretty well
>> consistent but the voltage representation can vary as much as 20%. 
>> LiION batteries are very difficult to measure SOC from the voltage
>> except for the two extremes.
>>
>> So what happens is that the coulomb count is ok but the capacity
>> estimate from the voltage can and does vary.
>>
>> So add all these factors up and it can explain where the missing
>> power has gone.
>>
>> I would also expect to use more than 1 kw for heating.
>>
>> Definitely worth getting more accurate data.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 06/12/2018 15:23, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
>>> Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and a
>>> quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed
>>> health
>>> and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 kWh
>>> capacity.
>>>
>>> You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise,
>>> including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake
>>> issues
>>> are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because the
>>> brakes
>>> don't get warmed/worked out much.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks, Collin.
>>>> That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
>>>> The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
>>>> Peri
>>>>
>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>> From: "Collin Kidder" <[hidden email]>
>>>> To: [hidden email]; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>> Cc:
>>>> Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>>
>>>>> I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
>>>>> miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
>>>>> The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
>>>>> Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
>>>>> be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
>>>>> they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly
>>>>> over
>>>>> time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
>>>>> better again.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter
>>>>> and
>>>>> you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be able
>>>>> to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these
>>>>> things.
>>>>> I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to
>>>>> work
>>>>> (there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge at
>>>>> home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
>>>>> work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
>>>>> miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to home
>>>>> in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
>>>>> with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV
>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Cor,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
>>>>>> you're assuming is
>>>>>> 100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
>>>>>> 100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
>>>>>> or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the
>>>>>> table
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest
>>>>>> of my
>>>>>> calculations are unchanged.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend
>>>>>> it,
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least I'd
>>>>>> know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peri
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>>>> From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> Cc: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Capacity bars are not linear.
>>>>>>> The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
>>>>>>> Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken
>>>>>>> (quoting
>>>>>> >from memory)
>>>>>>> So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so
>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>> than 15kWh.
>>>>>>> Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
>>>>>>> My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12
>>>>>>> quickly
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> 10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
>>>>>>> Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at
>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>> with still 3 bars left….
>>>>>>> I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X
>>>>>> bars
>>>>>>> is so many kWh left.
>>>>>>> GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much
>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>> judge what your Leaf is doing.
>>>>>>> Hope this helps,
>>>>>>> Cor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Peri Hartman via EV
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
>>>>>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>>>>>> Cc: Peri Hartman
>>>>>>> Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my
>>>>>>> 2011
>>>>>>> Leaf ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Temp about 45F
>>>>>>> Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
>>>>>>> "other systems" drawing about .25 kW
>>>>>>> Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge
>>>>>>> level
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> 9 capacity bars)
>>>>>>> Average 3.2 miles / kWh
>>>>>>> Duration about 1 hr.
>>>>>>> Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage
>>>>>>> meter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
>>>>>>> For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
>>>>>>> Total: 5.75 kWh.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> According to
>>>>>>> https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
>>>>>>> Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around
>>>>>> 17.
>>>>>>> Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total
>>>>>>> range.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What happened to the other 4 kWh?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf
>>>>>>> has had
>>>>>>> miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peri
>>>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>>>>> URL:
>>>>>>> <
>>>> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181205/ac242f27/attachment.html 
>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>>>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>>>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>>>>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>>>>> URL:
>>>>>>> <
>>>> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181204/67c9fb0f/attachment.html 
>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>>>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>>>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>>>>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>>>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>
>
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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Steve Heath wrote:

> The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average
> is 190 and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the
> distance.

I think you are meaning to state 180-230 Wh/mi?  180-230 mile/kWh would be extremely unusual efficiency for an on-road EV, and mile/kW just doesn’t make any sense ;^>

> If I use the capacity used based on voltage then it can get very silly.
> I was getting figures of 600-700 w/mile because the voltage vs soc is
> non linear. I could drive 25% of the range and the capacity would drop
> to 50%. This did not make sense so I stopped using them and fitted
> coulomb counters. I do use the voltage to predict low battery but the
> rest of the data is just a rough guide. The gauge does  look pretty on
> the dash though.

I understand your reasoning for not using battery voltage to estimate state of charge, but when you quote any efficiency values involving Wh or kWh (Wh/mi or mi/kWh), you are, of course, taking battery voltage into account because power depends upon both the battery voltage and current, and so, therefore, does energy in Wh or kWh.

Pure coulomb-counting will only give you energy usage in mi/Ah, which may be useful in the context of your own EV, but does not allow comparison to the usage of other EVs.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 6 Dec 2018 at 17:28, Steve Heath via EV wrote:

> The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average
> is 190 ...

If you're getting 190 miles per kWh, I want your EV.

I think you probably mean Wh/mile, not miles/kWh.  

> and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the distance.
> i.e. measuring the amount of power supplied by the batteries to travel
> the distance.

I think you mean energy, not power.  :-)

> This is not the same as the amount of [energy] from the plug to charge the
> batteries nor is it the same [energy] that the motor uses which causes
> further complications.

I'm not sure that I understand what the further complications are.  As far
as I can see, it should be just simple math.  The  energy use measured at
the motor should be the same as the energy consumed at the battery, minus
some percentage for losses in the controller, which will vary with
conditions, but can be averaged.  Am I missing something?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I know my Prius computers draw a total of 250W standing still. if the
leaf was similar, whats 250Wh consumed in an hour even if you did not move.

On 07-Dec-18 5:24 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> So, Steve, are you inferring the the 3.2 miles / kWh number could be
> inaccurate? If it's reasonably accurate, it becomes irrelevant on how
> efficiently I'm driving (yes, stop & go makes a big difference).
>
> I agree, my capacity and remaining charge estimates may be off. That's
> where the LeafSpy would help. Again, anyone care to recommend a ODB2
> device?
>
> Peri
>
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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
George Tyler via EV wrote:
> I know my Prius computers draw a total of 250W standing still. if the
> leaf was similar, whats 250Wh consumed in an hour even if you did not move.

Just a quick data point: My wife drove our 2013 Leaf to choir practice
this evening. Temperature about 15 deg.F. It used 40% of its charge on
the way there with the heater on. So on the way back, she left the
heater off (just used the seat and steering wheel heaters), and it used
20%. So the heater is using about as much power as driving the car down
the road.

--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Peri,
I selected the cheapest OBD2 that stated it supports the Leaf.
There was a warning not to use rev 2 of the ELM327 as they cost-reduced the necessary 2nd CAN interface away
But this actually states that it is rev 1.5 so that is good. All of $8.99
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ELM327/253856037016

Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 8:24 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Peri Hartman
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

So, Steve, are you inferring the the 3.2 miles / kWh number could be
inaccurate? If it's reasonably accurate, it becomes irrelevant on how
efficiently I'm driving (yes, stop & go makes a big difference).

I agree, my capacity and remaining charge estimates may be off. That's
where the LeafSpy would help. Again, anyone care to recommend a ODB2
device?

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Steve Heath" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>; "Peri
Hartman" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Haudy Kazemi" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 06-Dec-18 8:00:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

>There is another factor: 14 miles in one hour indicates to me a lot of
>stop start running and this can have a serious effect on the efficiency
>of the car.
>
>I do notice that stop start driving is not as efficient as cruising and
>there is little or no regen on braking. End result is a 15% difference
>is consumption in my experience.
>
>I can use less energy taking a longer route that has no speed bumps
>compared to one with them where I have to slow down and accelerate
>from.
>
>Although my car is a conversion, I do have very good coulomb counting
>instrumentation of what goes out and into the batteries and on the
>chargers and these agree within 1%.  I also have a voltage system that
>monitors the voltage and controls engaging Turbo mode if  that will
>force the battery voltage to drop below the BMS panic level. What is
>interesting is that the coulomb counting is pretty well consistent but
>the voltage representation can vary as much as 20%.  LiION batteries
>are very difficult to measure SOC from the voltage except for the two
>extremes.
>
>So what happens is that the coulomb count is ok but the capacity
>estimate from the voltage can and does vary.
>
>So add all these factors up and it can explain where the missing power
>has gone.
>
>I would also expect to use more than 1 kw for heating.
>
>Definitely worth getting more accurate data.
>
>
>
>On 06/12/2018 15:23, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
>>Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and a
>>quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed
>>health
>>and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 kWh
>>capacity.
>>
>>You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise,
>>including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake
>>issues
>>are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because the
>>brakes
>>don't get warmed/worked out much.
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Thanks, Collin.
>>>That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
>>>The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
>>>Peri
>>>
>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>From: "Collin Kidder" <[hidden email]>
>>>To: [hidden email]; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
>>><[hidden email]>
>>>Cc:
>>>Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>
>>>>I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
>>>>miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
>>>>The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
>>>>Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
>>>>be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
>>>>they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly
>>>>over
>>>>time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
>>>>better again.
>>>>
>>>>I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter
>>>>and
>>>>you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be
>>>>able
>>>>to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these
>>>>things.
>>>>I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to
>>>>work
>>>>(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge
>>>>at
>>>>home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
>>>>work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
>>>>miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to
>>>>home
>>>>in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
>>>>with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV
>>>><[hidden email]>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>>Cor,
>>>>>
>>>>>So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
>>>>>you're assuming is
>>>>>100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?
>>>>>
>>>>>In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
>>>>>100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
>>>>>or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.
>>>>>
>>>>>My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the
>>>>>table
>>>>>in
>>>>>the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of
>>>>>my
>>>>>calculations are unchanged.
>>>>>
>>>>>Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>>If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend
>>>>>it,
>>>>>I
>>>>>might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least
>>>>>I'd
>>>>>know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?
>>>>>
>>>>>Peri
>>>>>
>>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>>From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>Cc: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>>>
>>>>>>Capacity bars are not linear.
>>>>>>The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
>>>>>>Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken
>>>>>>(quoting
>>>>> >from memory)
>>>>>>So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so
>>>>>>less
>>>>>>than 15kWh.
>>>>>>Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
>>>>>>My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12
>>>>>>quickly
>>>>>to
>>>>>>10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
>>>>>>Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at
>>>>>>work
>>>>>>with still 3 bars left….
>>>>>>I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X
>>>>>bars
>>>>>>is so many kWh left.
>>>>>>GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much
>>>>>>better
>>>>>>judge what your Leaf is doing.
>>>>>>Hope this helps,
>>>>>>Cor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>>>>
>>>>>>From: Peri Hartman via EV
>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
>>>>>>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>>>>>Cc: Peri Hartman
>>>>>>Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of
>>>>>>my
>>>>>>2011
>>>>>>Leaf ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Temp about 45F
>>>>>>Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
>>>>>>"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
>>>>>>Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge
>>>>>>level
>>>>>is
>>>>>>9 capacity bars)
>>>>>>Average 3.2 miles / kWh
>>>>>>Duration about 1 hr.
>>>>>>Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage
>>>>>>meter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
>>>>>>For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
>>>>>>Total: 5.75 kWh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>According to
>>>>>>https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
>>>>>>5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and
>>>>>>9,
>>>>>the
>>>>>>battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
>>>>>>Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around
>>>>>17.
>>>>>>Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated
>>>>>>total
>>>>>>range.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What happened to the other 4 kWh?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has
>>>>>>had
>>>>>>miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Peri
>>>>>>-------------- next part --------------
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>>>http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181205/ac242f27/attachment.html
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>>>>>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
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>>>>>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>>>
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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 07/12/2018 01:00, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

> On 6 Dec 2018 at 17:28, Steve Heath via EV wrote:
>
>> The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average
>> is 190 ...
> If you're getting 190 miles per kWh, I want your EV.
>
> I think you probably mean Wh/mile, not miles/kWh.
>
>> and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the distance.
>> i.e. measuring the amount of power supplied by the batteries to travel
>> the distance.
> I think you mean energy, not power.  :-)
My apologies - you are right. I have given myself 30 minutes detention :)
>> This is not the same as the amount of [energy] from the plug to charge the
>> batteries nor is it the same [energy] that the motor uses which causes
>> further complications.
> I'm not sure that I understand what the further complications are.  As far
> as I can see, it should be just simple math.  The  energy use measured at
> the motor should be the same as the energy consumed at the battery, minus
> some percentage for losses in the controller, which will vary with
> conditions, but can be averaged.  Am I missing something?
Not really but there are other factors that come into play such as
battery recovery time, regen and so on. It makes these losses very
difficult to calculate as they are non-linear and condition dependent.
Averaging is better than nothing.  The level of effect is also dependent
on how much leeway you have in your vehicle.  To me it is very important
as I have a small battery pack - it is now around 6-7kw - and saving 10
or 20 watts per mile can make a big difference.

All this is all to do with removing/reducing range anxiety. Matters are
not helped when power consumption doubles when the heater is on. Why
manufacturers don't have a separate battery pack for the ancillaries so
that their use does not reduce the driving range, I don't know.
Presumably it is cost and the amount of power needed to power all the
gizmos that marketing insist must be present.  Anyway getting away from
the original topic.


Cheers
Steve




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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


On 06/12/2018 22:09, Roger Stockton via EV wrote:
> Steve Heath wrote:
>
>> The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average
>> is 190 and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the
>> distance.
> I think you are meaning to state 180-230 Wh/mi?  180-230 mile/kWh would be extremely unusual efficiency for an on-road EV, and mile/kW just doesn’t make any sense ;^>
I am currently in detention for the typos...

>
>> If I use the capacity used based on voltage then it can get very silly.
>> I was getting figures of 600-700 w/mile because the voltage vs soc is
>> non linear. I could drive 25% of the range and the capacity would drop
>> to 50%. This did not make sense so I stopped using them and fitted
>> coulomb counters. I do use the voltage to predict low battery but the
>> rest of the data is just a rough guide. The gauge does  look pretty on
>> the dash though.
> I understand your reasoning for not using battery voltage to estimate state of charge, but when you quote any efficiency values involving Wh or kWh (Wh/mi or mi/kWh), you are, of course, taking battery voltage into account because power depends upon both the battery voltage and current, and so, therefore, does energy in Wh or kWh.
>
> Pure coulomb-counting will only give you energy usage in mi/Ah, which may be useful in the context of your own EV, but does not allow comparison to the usage of other EVs.
Yes you are correct that coulomb counting is only part of the
measurements. The meters I use measure the voltage at the same time and
calculate the power, and so on.
So my EV did a 29 mile journey last night and consumed 117 aH battery
capacity and 5.7kW which works out at 196wh/mile.

Cheers

Steve
>

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