poor 2011 Leaf performance

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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 7 Dec 2018 at 10:30, Steve Heath via EV wrote:

> To me it is very important as I have a small battery
> pack - it is now around 6-7kw - and saving 10 or 20 watts per mile can make a
> big difference.

Better extend that detention. :-)  I don't mean to make a big deal about
this, but saying your battery capacity is 6-7kW is kind of like saying your
ICEV's gas tank holds 20 horsepower.  

Kilowatts are a measure of power.  You want Kilowatt HOURS, the measure of
energy stored in the battery.

>
> All this is all to do with removing/reducing range anxiety.

If you have a 7kWh battery, I can see why that would be important.  :-(

> Why manufacturers don't have a separate battery pack for the
> ancillaries so that their use does not reduce the driving range, I
> don't know.

There's actually a good reason for that.  When you weren't using the heater,
you'd be carrying around useless dead weight.  

It's because an EV has only so much room and weight capacity for the
battery.  If you dedicated part of that space to a battery solely for heat
and other extras, it would just be sitting there when you didn't need it,
adding weight but not range.  

It turns out that the most efficient and cost-effective way to handle these
extras is to make the traction battery as big as it can be (given space,
weight and cost considerations), and power the extras from the traction
battery.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Steve,
Is your worst case really 230 Wh / mile? That's rather incredible
(translates to 4.3 miles / kWh). That's around the *best* I ever get
with my Leaf, in summer. What are you driving, and where?
Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Steve Heath" <[hidden email]>
To: "Peri Hartman" <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" <[hidden email]>
Cc:
Sent: 06-Dec-18 9:28:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

>It could well be. The charts you refer to have so many caveats that the
>figures are only a very rough guide.  This is one of the major problem
>of calculating range.
>
>The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average
>is 190 and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the
>distance. i.e. measuring the amount of power supplied by the batteries
>to travel the distance. This is not the same as the amount of power
>from the plug to charge the batteries nor is it the same power that the
>motor uses which causes further complications. The distances btw are
>also near the theoretical maximum that my battery pack can support so
>that the effect of the battery capacity curve cancels out.
>
>If I use the capacity used based on voltage then it can get very silly.
>I was getting figures of 600-700 w/mile because the voltage vs soc is
>non linear. I could drive 25% of the range and the capacity would drop
>to 50%. This did not make sense so I stopped using them and fitted
>coulomb counters. I do use the voltage to predict low battery but the
>rest of the data is just a rough guide. The gauge does  look pretty on
>the dash though.
>
>Get the Leafspy and start collecting your own data and use that to
>build up the values for your car. That will indicate exactly what is
>happening.
>
>
>Cheers
>
>Steve
>
>
>On 06/12/2018 16:24, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>So, Steve, are you inferring the the 3.2 miles / kWh number could be
>>inaccurate? If it's reasonably accurate, it becomes irrelevant on how
>>efficiently I'm driving (yes, stop & go makes a big difference).
>>
>>I agree, my capacity and remaining charge estimates may be off. That's
>>where the LeafSpy would help. Again, anyone care to recommend a ODB2
>>device?
>>
>>Peri
>>
>>------ Original Message ------
>>From: "Steve Heath" <[hidden email]>
>>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>; "Peri
>>Hartman" <[hidden email]>
>>Cc: "Haudy Kazemi" <[hidden email]>
>>Sent: 06-Dec-18 8:00:26 AM
>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>
>>>There is another factor: 14 miles in one hour indicates to me a lot
>>>of stop start running and this can have a serious effect on the
>>>efficiency of the car.
>>>
>>>I do notice that stop start driving is not as efficient as cruising
>>>and there is little or no regen on braking. End result is a 15%
>>>difference is consumption in my experience.
>>>
>>>I can use less energy taking a longer route that has no speed bumps
>>>compared to one with them where I have to slow down and accelerate
>>>from.
>>>
>>>Although my car is a conversion, I do have very good coulomb counting
>>>instrumentation of what goes out and into the batteries and on the
>>>chargers and these agree within 1%.  I also have a voltage system
>>>that monitors the voltage and controls engaging Turbo mode if  that
>>>will force the battery voltage to drop below the BMS panic level.
>>>What is interesting is that the coulomb counting is pretty well
>>>consistent but the voltage representation can vary as much as 20%.  
>>>LiION batteries are very difficult to measure SOC from the voltage
>>>except for the two extremes.
>>>
>>>So what happens is that the coulomb count is ok but the capacity
>>>estimate from the voltage can and does vary.
>>>
>>>So add all these factors up and it can explain where the missing
>>>power has gone.
>>>
>>>I would also expect to use more than 1 kw for heating.
>>>
>>>Definitely worth getting more accurate data.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On 06/12/2018 15:23, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
>>>>Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and
>>>>a
>>>>quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed
>>>>health
>>>>and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 kWh
>>>>capacity.
>>>>
>>>>You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise,
>>>>including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake
>>>>issues
>>>>are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because the
>>>>brakes
>>>>don't get warmed/worked out much.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Thanks, Collin.
>>>>>That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
>>>>>The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
>>>>>Peri
>>>>>
>>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>>From: "Collin Kidder" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>To: [hidden email]; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
>>>>><[hidden email]>
>>>>>Cc:
>>>>>Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>>>
>>>>>>I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
>>>>>>miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50
>>>>>>miles.
>>>>>>The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
>>>>>>Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
>>>>>>they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly
>>>>>>over
>>>>>>time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
>>>>>>better again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be
>>>>>>able
>>>>>>to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these
>>>>>>things.
>>>>>>I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to
>>>>>>work
>>>>>>(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge
>>>>>>at
>>>>>>home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18
>>>>>>required
>>>>>>miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to
>>>>>>home
>>>>>>in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
>>>>>>with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV
>>>>>><[hidden email]>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>Cor,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars,
>>>>>>>which
>>>>>>>you're assuming is
>>>>>>>100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
>>>>>>>100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
>>>>>>>or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the
>>>>>>>table
>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest
>>>>>>>of my
>>>>>>>calculations are unchanged.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend
>>>>>>>it,
>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least
>>>>>>>I'd
>>>>>>>know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Peri
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>>>>From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>Cc: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Capacity bars are not linear.
>>>>>>>>The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100%
>>>>>>>>capacity.
>>>>>>>>Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken
>>>>>>>>(quoting
>>>>>>> >from memory)
>>>>>>>>So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so
>>>>>>>>less
>>>>>>>>than 15kWh.
>>>>>>>>Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
>>>>>>>>My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12
>>>>>>>>quickly
>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
>>>>>>>>Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at
>>>>>>>>work
>>>>>>>>with still 3 bars left….
>>>>>>>>I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say
>>>>>>>>X
>>>>>>>bars
>>>>>>>>is so many kWh left.
>>>>>>>>GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much
>>>>>>>>better
>>>>>>>>judge what your Leaf is doing.
>>>>>>>>Hope this helps,
>>>>>>>>Cor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>From: Peri Hartman via EV
>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
>>>>>>>>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>>>>>>>Cc: Peri Hartman
>>>>>>>>Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of
>>>>>>>>my
>>>>>>>>2011
>>>>>>>>Leaf ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Temp about 45F
>>>>>>>>Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
>>>>>>>>"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
>>>>>>>>Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge
>>>>>>>>level
>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>9 capacity bars)
>>>>>>>>Average 3.2 miles / kWh
>>>>>>>>Duration about 1 hr.
>>>>>>>>Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage
>>>>>>>>meter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
>>>>>>>>For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
>>>>>>>>Total: 5.75 kWh.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>According to
>>>>>>>>https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
>>>>>>>>5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and
>>>>>>>>9,
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
>>>>>>>>Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be
>>>>>>>>around
>>>>>>>17.
>>>>>>>>Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated
>>>>>>>>total
>>>>>>>>range.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>What happened to the other 4 kWh?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf
>>>>>>>>has had
>>>>>>>>miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know
>>>>>>>>why.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Peri
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>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>>>>>>>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>>>>>>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>>>>>>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>>>>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>>>>>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
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>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>

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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The car is here:  http://www.evalbum.com/5368

It's the result of a bet that I couldn't built an EV for £750 (1000$).
It is basically an urban run around as most of my driving is in and
around Milton Keynes which has the highest density of ev charging points
in the UK and many are free! It became part of my PhD studies. The area
is full of gently rolling hills and is not flat which would help and yes
power consumption is often higher in one direction than the other.

I simulated many donor cars and came to the conclusion that the biggest
factors in efficiency were weight and friction/aerodynamic losses.
Interestingly if you look at the weight of European vehicles of the last
20 years today's vehicles have doubled in weight compared to their 20
year ancestors despite the use of lightweight materials. Some of it is
improved safety but a lot of it are the extra gizmos that are deemed
essential for today's market. Do away with those and the weight comes
tumbling down.  So I selected a Reliant Kitten and found one that was
being used as a chicken coop in a barn.

The result is a vehicle that weighs only 545kg */including batteries/*
which means I'm not expending energy moving things like electric
windows, power steering etc etc. There is no wiring loom just a CAN bus
and power and all the ancillaries are controlled by multiple micros. All
the lights etc are LED including the headlamps, heating is done by
taking the hot air from the motor cooling fan and ducting it into the
vehicle. The whole vehicle is designed to be as miserly as possible.
That is why it gets the good figures. Unfortunately the car has the
aerodynamics of a brick but there may be some room for improvement.

It has also allowed me to do some clever power management to get the
most from the batteries. One big improvement is the 22x 2600F
ultracapacitor pack that is connected in parallel with the batteries.
These smooth out the power surges and allow more power to be harvested
during regen because they can accept higher charging currents than the
battery packs. End result is better battery life and the ability to
extract a bit more capacity.  It is quite fun watching the fuel gauge
fill up when braking.

Anyway I can cope with manually winding the window up and down, locking
the doors individually etc for the 1.5p (2 cents) a mile it costs to
run. Especially as gas/diesel is around £6 (7.2$) a gallon in the UK!

If I had the aerodynamics of a Leaf, I'm sure I could get the figure to
around 100 wh/mile. Not totally sure it would be cost effective though!


Steve


On 07/12/2018 15:34, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> Steve,
> Is your worst case really 230 Wh / mile? That's rather incredible
> (translates to 4.3 miles / kWh). That's around the *best* I ever get
> with my Leaf, in summer. What are you driving, and where?
> Peri
>

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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Steve Heath via EV wrote:
>> I'm not sure that I understand what the further complications are.  As
>> far as I can see, it should be just simple math. The energy use measured at
>> the motor should be the same as the energy consumed at the battery, minus
>> some percentage for losses in the controller, which will vary with
>> conditions, but can be averaged. Am I missing something?

> Not really but there are other factors that come into play such as
> battery recovery time, regen and so on. It makes these losses very
> difficult to calculate as they are non-linear and condition dependent.
> Averaging is better than nothing.

Yes, it's better than ignoring them. However, most of these losses are
non-linear. For example, resistive losses in the motor, batteries, and
wiring go up as the square of the current; not linearly. Controller and
charger efficiency are highly non-linear as well. The batteries have
something called the Peukert effect, which means their apparent amphour
capacity goes down as current rises.

> The level of effect is also dependent on how much leeway you have in your
> vehicle.  To me it is very important as I have a small battery pack - it
> is now around 6-7kw - and saving 10 or 20 watts per mile can make a big
> difference.

I agree. For most of the history of EVs, our battery packs have always
been "small" compared to a tank of gasoline. It has forced EV'ers to
think about efficiency.

> All this is all to do with removing/reducing range anxiety. Matters are
> not helped when power consumption doubles when the heater is on. Why
> manufacturers don't have a separate battery pack for the ancillaries so
> that their use does not reduce the driving range, I don't know.
> Presumably it is cost and the amount of power needed to power all the
> gizmos that marketing insist must be present.  Anyway getting away from
> the original topic.

It makes more sense to have one big battery than two smaller ones, only
one of which is used to propel the car. Range inevitably drops when the
heater or A/C is used. But that's true for ICEs as well (though not so
much for the heater; ICE's have more heat than they know what to do with).

On the amount of power cars use: We go out of our way to have efficient
home heating and cooling systems. We have portable clocks, computers,
and radios that use tiny amounts of power. But cars (including EVs) are
still designed for the "oil age" when power is infinite and free.

It takes more power to heat or cool a car than an entire apartment. Cars
have negligible insulation, lots of air leaks, and are all single-pane
windows. Most of the lights are still tungsten bulbs. A car's clock,
radio, and computers use 100's of times more power than your other
battery-operated clocks, radios, or computers. The automakers have
simply not had to think about power.

--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Nice job, Steve ! Compliments to you.
Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Steve Heath" <[hidden email]>
To: "Peri Hartman" <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" <[hidden email]>
Cc:
Sent: 07-Dec-18 8:58:58 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

>The car is here:  http://www.evalbum.com/5368
>
>It's the result of a bet that I couldn't built an EV for £750 (1000$).
>It is basically an urban run around as most of my driving is in and
>around Milton Keynes which has the highest density of ev charging
>points in the UK and many are free! It became part of my PhD studies.
>The area is full of gently rolling hills and is not flat which would
>help and yes power consumption is often higher in one direction than
>the other.
>
>I simulated many donor cars and came to the conclusion that the biggest
>factors in efficiency were weight and friction/aerodynamic losses.
>Interestingly if you look at the weight of European vehicles of the
>last 20 years today's vehicles have doubled in weight compared to their
>20 year ancestors despite the use of lightweight materials. Some of it
>is improved safety but a lot of it are the extra gizmos that are deemed
>essential for today's market. Do away with those and the weight comes
>tumbling down.  So I selected a Reliant Kitten and found one that was
>being used as a chicken coop in a barn.
>
>The result is a vehicle that weighs only 545kg including batteries
>which means I'm not expending energy moving things like electric
>windows, power steering etc etc. There is no wiring loom just a CAN bus
>and power and all the ancillaries are controlled by multiple micros.
>All the lights etc are LED including the headlamps, heating is done by
>taking the hot air from the motor cooling fan and ducting it into the
>vehicle. The whole vehicle is designed to be as miserly as possible.
>That is why it gets the good figures. Unfortunately the car has the
>aerodynamics of a brick but there may be some room for improvement.
>
>It has also allowed me to do some clever power management to get the
>most from the batteries. One big improvement is the 22x 2600F
>ultracapacitor pack that is connected in parallel with the batteries.
>These smooth out the power surges and allow more power to be harvested
>during regen because they can accept higher charging currents than the
>battery packs. End result is better battery life and the ability to
>extract a bit more capacity.  It is quite fun watching the fuel gauge
>fill up when braking.
>
>Anyway I can cope with manually winding the window up and down, locking
>the doors individually etc for the 1.5p (2 cents) a mile it costs to
>run. Especially as gas/diesel is around £6 (7.2$) a gallon in the UK!
>
>If I had the aerodynamics of a Leaf, I'm sure I could get the figure to
>around 100 wh/mile. Not totally sure it would be cost effective though!
>
>
>
>Steve
>
>
>On 07/12/2018 15:34, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>Steve,
>>Is your worst case really 230 Wh / mile? That's rather incredible
>>(translates to 4.3 miles / kWh). That's around the *best* I ever get
>>with my Leaf, in summer. What are you driving, and where?
>>Peri
>>
>
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Re: poor 2011 Leaf performance

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 7 Dec 2018 at 16:58, Steve Heath via EV wrote:

> The car is here:  http://www.evalbum.com/5368

Impressive!  Even more so when you consider the low cost of conversion.  
Well done.

You're absolutely right about the dismaying bloat of modern cars.  For EV
conversions, a light glider is the secret to good range and performance
without a high conversion cost.

In the early 1970s I owned a 1965 Opel Kadett Coupe.  It would have almost
certainly made for a successful conversion, though I didn't consider it
then.  

It was dirt-simple: manual brakes and steering, roll-up windows, heating and
ventilation controlled by plain mechanical linkages.  The wiring diagram
took up just 2 pages in the shop manual.  No computers, of course.  

All up weight was under 1500lb (670kg) with a GWVR of almost 2300lb.  

Best of all, it had a nice big square trunk. Pushing the GWVR a bit, I could
probably have put 800lb of lead in there and under the hood.  I expect that
12 golf car batteries (72 volts) would have given me a solid 40+mi of range.
With modern batteries, much more.

https://postimg.cc/dZ01vRf5

https://postimg.cc/bs35sxBQ

A somewhat more recent light car for EV conversion is the mid-1980s Suzuki
Swift (Chevrolet Sprint in the US) at 620 to 750kg  (Sprint: 680kg/1500lb).  
Unfortunately I suspect that these aren't much easier than mid-60s Opels to
find in usable condition.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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