power steering and brakes

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
10 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

power steering and brakes

CHARLIEP
I have60 yrs experience in ice related machines,and only experience in ev ,that I have gained in the last 4 months . Having said that ,I would suggest that leverage can be gained by using a larger steering wheel and longer brake pedal arm, therefor saving battery power and money on unnessary pumps, most cabins have room for a much larger steering wheel, and the master cyl. can be raised on the fire wall  leaving room for a longer pedal arm. If you don't want to raise master cyl. you can create a multiple leverage link, the pedal will have a longer stroke but shouldn't  cause a problem . Respectfully Charlie P
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: power steering and brakes

Bob Rice-2
   I'm with YOU, Charlie! Seens with my 40 years of tinkering with cars, I
feel that synmplifying stuff is the way to go? Getting RID of vacuum
assisted brakes and power steering is the way to go? I sorta get blankl
stares at suggesting to find a smaller dia piston area Master cylinder MIGHT
increase braking effort with maybe a tad longer pedal stroke?Disc brakes
REQUIRE a vacuum assist, they say??I would think LEVERAGE is the secret
here? A vacuum thing is just a cheaper out?

    As for power stearing, can't a rack and pinion with a higher gear ratio
give you the same effort? Maybe gotta turn the wheel a bit more to increase
the effort at the Pitman arm? My 1954 International School Bus camper steers
like a feather! I attribute it to just GOOD design, of 50 years ago?Yeah the
wheel is a tad bigger than a Jetta's, but you expect that on a bus? Has a
vacuum pack brake setup which works great, too.I just think it was good
design , in a basic truck chassis, born as a bus?

   Trouble here is that we do conversions as a one-off, don't wanna just go
crazy TRYING to re-engineer all the damn systems the  car CAME with? Oh IF
there was a relatively simple bolt in master cylinder to upgrade your
leverage?Hell, just HOW to do it? You buy Hot Rod mags with PAGES oif :How
To" mods for yur gas rig. High skool kids can follow the step by step
instructions, or buy stuff from Jegs or some OTHER respectable Parts House?

  So, I live with my crappy conversion, put a pulley on the vacuum and power
steering pump crap so I can just USE it?Holding my breath for a Godamn
PRODUCTION EV that REAL enginerrs have delt with all these nitty gritty
issues? Not trying to reinvent the godamn automobile! Just trying to use it
better? Would sure like a handy bolt on "manual" brake setup so I wouldn't
about 5000k lbs pedal pressure, to stop<g>!AND get RID of the vavuum pump
setup we are all beholden to! My 65 Corvair Corsa conversion had 10" DRUM
brakes all around and NO vacuum crap! Worked great, the 'vair was a nice
lite doner car, too!Wish I had it NOW to put my 9" motor and Rapture
in!Hmmm? MAYBE a Corvair Master Cylinder in the Jetta, but NO split system,
which is a safety thing, nowadaze? Sigh.

  Cars: a neccessery evil, sigh, rather be training!

   Seeya

    Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie P" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:36 AM
Subject: [EVDL] power steering and brakes


>
> I have60 yrs experience in ice related machines,and only experience in ev
> ,that I have gained in the last 4 months . Having said that ,I would
> suggest
> that leverage can be gained by using a larger steering wheel and longer
> brake pedal arm, therefor saving battery power and money on unnessary
> pumps,
> most cabins have room for a much larger steering wheel, and the master
> cyl.
> can be raised on the fire wall  leaving room for a longer pedal arm. If
> you
> don't want to raise master cyl. you can create a multiple leverage link,
> the
> pedal will have a longer stroke but shouldn't  cause a problem .
> Respectfully Charlie P
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/power-steering-and-brakes-tp22407103p22407103.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: power steering and brakes

Rick Beebe
Bob Rice wrote:
>    I'm with YOU, Charlie! Seens with my 40 years of tinkering with cars, I
> feel that synmplifying stuff is the way to go? Getting RID of vacuum
> assisted brakes and power steering is the way to go?

[...]

>    Trouble here is that we do conversions as a one-off, don't wanna just go
> crazy TRYING to re-engineer all the damn systems the  car CAME with? Oh IF
> there was a relatively simple bolt in master cylinder to upgrade your
> leverage?

I'm all for simplifying. Heck, electric cars should be a LOT simpler
than their gas guzzling, fuel injected, emission controlled,
computerized sires. BUT, I also don't like doing too much of my own
engineering on safety equipment like steering and brakes. Especially if
we're making the durn vehicles a lot heavier. Personally I think an
electric vacuum pump and a reservoir is a lot simpler (though more
expensive) than trying to re-engineer the master cylinder and brake
pedal stroke.

Power steering. The first thing to do is to see if the car (or a similar
model) ever came with manual steering and then see if you can find a
manual box. If not, you can try 'depowering' the power steering. It'll
be heavier than manual steering but less than when you try to steer
without the engine running. Basically you just loop in the input/output
lines together on the box. An you can substitute parking for trips to
the gym!

--Rick

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: power steering and brakes modifications info

Roland Wiench
Hello Rick,

Here is some data for installing a early model manual master cylinder in
place of a power brake unit which will be my next mod.

http:www.arengineering.com/mastercyl/mastercar/frame3.htm

Now if you need more stopping power because of the type of brakes you have
and do not want to upgrade the brakes pads for a manual brake unit, then
look at this:

http://ecihotrodbrakes.com/brake_pressure_multiplier.html

Now if you want to get rid of the master cylinder and hydraulic lines all
together, is to install the new electric brake system that is a
brake-by-wire system by Siemens.

This will eliminate the need for hydraulic lines, the ABS control unit,
brake booster, and the parking brake which will be introduce in 2010.

See Blog at:

http://blog.wire.com/cars/2006/04/electric_brake_.html

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Beebe" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] power steering and brakes

Trouble here is that we do conversions as a one-off, don't wanna just go
crazy TRYING to re-engineer all the damn systems the  car CAME with? Oh IF
there was a relatively simple bolt in master cylinder to upgrade your
leverage?

I'm all for simplifying. Heck, electric cars should be a LOT simpler
than their gas guzzling, fuel injected, emission controlled,
computerized sires. BUT, I also don't like doing too much of my own
engineering on safety equipment like steering and brakes. Especially if
we're making the durn vehicles a lot heavier. Personally I think an
electric vacuum pump and a reservoir is a lot simpler (though more
expensive) than trying to re-engineer the master cylinder and brake  pedal
stroke.

Power steering. The first thing to do is to see if the car (or a similar
model) ever came with manual steering and then see if you can find a
manual box. If not, you can try 'de-powering' the power steering. It'll  be
heavier than manual steering but less than when you try to steer  without
the engine running. Basically you just loop in the input/output lines
together on the box. An you can substitute parking for trips to the gym!

 --Rick
 

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: power steering and brakes modifications info

Doug Weathers

On Mar 9, 2009, at 10:41 PM, Roland Wiench wrote:

> Now if you want to get rid of the master cylinder and hydraulic  
> lines all
> together, is to install the new electric brake system that is a
> brake-by-wire system by Siemens.
>
> This will eliminate the need for hydraulic lines, the ABS control  
> unit,
> brake booster, and the parking brake which will be introduce in 2010.
>
> See Blog at:
>
> http://blog.wire.com/cars/2006/04/electric_brake_.html

That link is no longer working.  The domain has been parked.

Here's a link to an article about a Siemens electric brake-by-wire  
system:

<http://www.motiontrends.com/2005/2005csm/m09eng/siemens/brakes/ 
electronicwedgebrake.shtml>

or the tiny version:

<http://tinyurl.com/czbuet>

Sounds like it combines the best features of disc and drum brakes,  
plus it doesn't require hydraulics.

Just the ticket for an EV!



>
> Roland

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: power steering and brakes modifications info

Dennis at e v school
In reply to this post by Roland Wiench
Hey this looks like a great idea, but the article says in this  decade, so
one more reason to delay producing EVs for ten more years.  at  this rate, by
the time brakes and batteries get good enough I'll be DEAD. So  I'll have to run
a vacuum pump, off  my pack of 6 V. flooded golf car  batteries and pull
strongly on my manual steering, and shift my clutch less  transmission when
driving conditions change, and limit my trip to 75 miles  between recharging. But I
can drive it now and not wait 10 more years. LOL LOL  LOL (:o))  Seriously,
change the donor as little as possible a big  investment won't show a profit.  
Put the AC Compressor, and the original  Alternator, and a vacuum pump from a
late model diesel pick-up, and the power  steering pump on a belt drive of your
main drive motor. They will help slow you  down and save your brake pads
wear. And a switch to Idle the motor at 750 rpm  under load in neutral (of the
manual transmission)will save you at the red  light. And the AC working might
save your marriage, if you live in the  South.
        Yesterday is  History, Tomorrow is a Mystery, Today is a gift, that
is why we call it the  Present.  Best Wishes,  Dennis of EVtrainingCenter.
 
In a message dated 3/10/2009 2:23:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:


On  Mar 9, 2009, at 10:41 PM, Roland Wiench wrote:

> Now if you want to  get rid of the master cylinder and hydraulic  
> lines all
>  together, is to install the new electric brake system that is a
>  brake-by-wire system by Siemens.
>
> This will eliminate the need  for hydraulic lines, the ABS control  
> unit,
> brake  booster, and the parking brake which will be introduce in  2010.
>
> See Blog at:
>
>  http://blog.wire.com/cars/2006/04/electric_brake_.html

That link is no  longer working.  The domain has been parked.

Here's a link to an  article about a Siemens electric brake-by-wire  
system:

<http://www.motiontrends.com/2005/2005csm/m09eng/siemens/brakes/ 
electronicwedgebrake.shtml>

<<<this above, wouldn't work either. But Below  did.


or  the tiny version:

<http://tinyurl.com/czbuet>

Sounds like  it combines the best features of disc and drum brakes,  
plus it  doesn't require hydraulics.

Just the ticket for an  EV!



>
> Roland

_>>>someday, Roland,  Our Day Will Come
!______________________________________________
General  EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines:  http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives:  http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options:  http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219671244x1201345076/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID
%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: power steering and brakes modifications info

EVDL Administrator
On 10 Mar 2009 at 3:31, [hidden email] wrote:

> Put the AC Compressor, and the original  Alternator, and a vacuum pump
> from a late model diesel pick-up, and the power  steering pump on a
> belt drive of your main drive motor. They will help slow you  down and
> save your brake pads wear. And a switch to Idle the motor at 750 rpm
> under load in neutral (of the manual transmission)will save you at the
> red  light.

All this makes it easier, at least in some cases.  Maybe it gets a couple
more EVs on the road, and that's a good thing.  

However, each item above knocks off a little bit of efficiency, a little bit
of range.  Each item above gives the EV one more undesirable and unnecessary
characteristic of an ICE.  Each one makes it less like a "real" EV and more
like an ICE -- a cruder vehicle, in my book.

There's a good reason that the new Prius will have NO belts under the hood.  
This list isn't really for discussing such things, but as ICEs go, it's
pretty highly evolved.  Yes, I know, we have to be practical, but in the
ideal case --should our EVs be less evolved?

I'll take my EV with a DC:DC.

I'll take my EV with manual steering.  If not, I'd like electric power
steering.  I'll settle for a small, clean, quiet motor running the pump.

I'll take my EV with manual brakes.  If  not, I'd like an electric servo.  
I'll settle for a vacuum pump.

I'll take my EV with good ventilation, including a sunroof to let the heat
out.  If I have to have air-con, I want it electric.  If not, I'll settle
for a separate, small, quiet motor running the factory compressor.

And I absolutely, positively DO NOT want my EV to idle under any
circumstances.  In my view, that's blatant energy waste and totally
unnecessary with an EV.

But that's me.  To each his own -- that's the beauty of building it
yourself.  You make it the way YOU want it.  If you're OK with an EV that
has some of the wasteful habits of an ICE lingering behind, and it helps you
get that EV on the road and working, by all means go for it.  Remember, as
Lee says, perfection is the enemy of the good.  

But I suggest that sometime you try driving a more evolved EV -- just so you
know what you're missing.  ;-)

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: power steering and brakes modifications info

Dennis at e v school
In reply to this post by Roland Wiench



On 10  Mar 2009 at 3:31, [hidden email] wrote:

> Put the AC  Compressor, and the original  Alternator, and a vacuum pump
> from  a late model diesel pick-up, and the power  steering pump on a
>  belt drive of your main drive motor. They will help slow you  down  and
> save your brake pads wear. And a switch to Idle the motor at 750  rpm
> under load in neutral (of the manual transmission)will save you  at the
> red  light.

All this makes it easier, at least in  some cases.  Maybe it gets a couple
more EVs on the road, and that's  a good thing.  

However, each item above knocks off a little bit  of efficiency, a little bit
of range.  Each item above gives the EV  one more undesirable and unnecessary
characteristic of an ICE.  Each  one makes it less like a "real" EV and more
like an ICE -- a cruder  vehicle, in my book.
>>>Here we differ, I view the conversion as only  changing Engines from
Petrol to >>>Electric,  it is still a 21st  century Automobile. I try to live in
the Present.



There's a good reason that the new Prius will have NO belts  under the hood.  
This list isn't really for discussing such things,  but as ICEs go, it's
pretty highly evolved.  Yes, I know, we have to  be practical, but in the
ideal case --should our EVs be less  evolved?
>>>I agree with that statement , if you don't look  too closely. Do you want
that >>>1995 Sedan to have all the  sophistication of a 2010 Sedan? I don't
think it is >>>within reason to  replace any part that works. Just use it! Or
you are building >>>an EV  from scratch and shouldn't use a donor car at all!



I'll take my EV with a DC:DC.
>>>But that knocks a little bit of range too. Perhaps  somewhat less. But at
a >>>initial outlay of $200 to $500 more than the  Alternator.

I'll take my EV with manual steering.  If not,  I'd like electric power
steering.  I'll settle for a small, clean,  quiet motor running the pump.
>>>And another motor drawing range right out of the  pack? No, out of the
DC/DC >>>reducing efficiency while drawing 50 amps  on turning during slow
>>>maneuvering and 30 amps the rest of the  time.



I'll take my EV with manual brakes.  If  not, I'd  like an electric servo.  
I'll settle for a vacuum  pump.
>>>Oh,Oh, another motor, 12 V. drawing off the DC/DC  again ? 20 more Amps?
>>> And users say those pumps are NOT quiet, unless  you get the Swiss Made
for >>>$350.00 one you like...



I'll take my EV with good ventilation, including a sunroof to  let the heat
out.  If I have to have air-con, I want it  electric.  If not, I'll settle
for a separate, small, quiet motor  running the factory compressor.
>>>That will take a 5 hp, four kilowatt motor run  directly from the pack.



And I absolutely, positively DO NOT want my EV to idle under  any
circumstances.  In my view, that's blatant energy waste and  totally
unnecessary with an EV.

>>>But, you will run three motors and a DC/DC off the  pack? that is blatant
>>>energy waste and lower efficiency than the  belt drive. And the belt drive
is >>>free of course when going  downhill, or braking, or stopped unless you
select >>>to idle for  AC,  when sitting stopped. in traffic with a longer than
five minute  >>>standing. (It happens in Tampa.)



But that's me.  To each his own -- that's the beauty of  building it
yourself.  You make it the way YOU want it.  If  you're OK with an EV that
has some of the wasteful habits of an ICE  lingering behind, and it helps you
get that EV on the road and working, by  all means go for it.  Remember, as
Lee says, perfection is the enemy  of the good.  

But I suggest that sometime you try driving a more  evolved EV -- just so you
know what you're missing.   ;-)
>>> So Evolved is a 2010 Prius,   Like you  say, that is you.  I seek
simplicity, >>>efficiency, economy, and  proven longevity. With automotive proven
systems.
>>>Remember as the Carpenters who built my house  said, "God is in the
>>>details." Every replacement part for my  donor car is pure standard parts, only
>>>the motor, controller, pack,  and charger/bms, are EV parts.  I convert to
>>>Electric Drive, it  is still a Honda, or Ford, not to an EV-1, or a Tesla.
>>>By the way I RESPECT your opinion! I always save  your posts, And use them
>>>with my students as Good examples of the  right way.  Buy the way, Wayne
at >>>Electric Blue has recommended  every idea I presented above, and I
RESPECT >>>him too. He has been doing conversions since 1974. And is still doing one
a  >>> week.
>>>  Dennis, at EVtrainingCenter   in Lakeland, Florida.



David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= =  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information:  http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =  = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not  
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email  address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = =  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =  =


_______________________________________________
General EVDL  support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines:  http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives:  http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options:  http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219671244x1201345076/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID
%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: power steering and brakes

Chris
In reply to this post by Bob Rice-2

I've messed with ICE customizing for quite some time now and I agree fully.
It isn't that hard to remove the vacuum assist and install a manual master
cylinder. If you are building an EV I'd say you can do this. There are many
options and just a few simple rules to know. If all else is the same, a
larger MC bore gives you less travel, less pressure. More peddle leverage
gives you more pressure and longer peddle travel.

Some options are electric hydroboost found in many GM cars. Also check out
Wilwood and Tilton for all sorts of options for peddles and master
cylinders.

Also look into bias adjustable or balance bar style dual master cylinder set
ups.

Stub



Bob Rice wrote:
>   I'm with YOU, Charlie! Seens with my 40 years of tinkering with
> cars, I feel that synmplifying stuff is the way to go? Getting RID of
> vacuum assisted brakes and power steering is the way to go? I sorta
> get blankl stares at suggesting to find a smaller dia piston area
> Master cylinder MIGHT increase braking effort with maybe a tad longer
> pedal stroke?Disc brakes REQUIRE a vacuum assist, they say??I would
> think LEVERAGE is the secret here? A vacuum thing is just a cheaper
> out?

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: power steering and brakes

Jake Anderson-3
One thing to watch for, the increased pedal force could cause metal
fatigue problems where it mounts to the firewall.

One model of car here had problems with that, The manual version would
wind up cracking the firewall due to the pressure from the clutch pedal.

Not saying its a terrible problem, just keep it in mind if your doing
that conversion.

Chris Stephens wrote:

> I've messed with ICE customizing for quite some time now and I agree fully.
> It isn't that hard to remove the vacuum assist and install a manual master
> cylinder. If you are building an EV I'd say you can do this. There are many
> options and just a few simple rules to know. If all else is the same, a
> larger MC bore gives you less travel, less pressure. More peddle leverage
> gives you more pressure and longer peddle travel.
>
> Some options are electric hydroboost found in many GM cars. Also check out
> Wilwood and Tilton for all sorts of options for peddles and master
> cylinders.
>
> Also look into bias adjustable or balance bar style dual master cylinder set
> ups.
>
> Stub
>
>
>
> Bob Rice wrote:
>  
>>   I'm with YOU, Charlie! Seens with my 40 years of tinkering with
>> cars, I feel that synmplifying stuff is the way to go? Getting RID of
>> vacuum assisted brakes and power steering is the way to go? I sorta
>> get blankl stares at suggesting to find a smaller dia piston area
>> Master cylinder MIGHT increase braking effort with maybe a tad longer
>> pedal stroke?Disc brakes REQUIRE a vacuum assist, they say??I would
>> think LEVERAGE is the secret here? A vacuum thing is just a cheaper
>> out?
>>    
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>  

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev