questions about Virginia HB 780

[Ken Overway]

Hi all,

I am about to start my first EV conversion (1997 Miata) and I found Virginia House Bill 780 which includes some requirements for Converted Electric Vehicles in order to pass inspection (takes effect in Oct 2012). Does anyone in VA have knowledge of this bill? I'm worried about passing inspection and want to make sure I cross my t's and dot the i's.

Specifically:

Buried in HB 780 it states

"Such certification shall be on a form approved by the Commissioner and the Superintendent and shall state that the inspector has verified that..
(ii) the fuel tank has been removed and not replaced;"

I’d like to convert the tank into a storage trunk since it is located directly behind the passenger seats. It will no longer function as a tank and will be cleaned and painted, but it is still the same “tank”. Advice?

Also buried in the code is

"3. An externally mounted switch to open the high voltage circuit in case of an emergency. Such switch must be located where the fuel tank filler cap was located prior to conversion. Any cover protecting the switch must be able to be opened from the outside of the vehicle;"

I wonder if any SPST switch will work. The ignition key already serves to interrupt the contactor for the battery bank. I was going to just add another switch in the gas tank flap area that interrupts the 12 V of the key switch. I think that is what they want. Advice?

Also, like most cars, my tank lid locks down and is only accessible when the switch is pulled from inside the car. Do I have to disable this and make it spring-loaded?

Can someone with experience in going through a VA state inspection of a converted electric vehicle let me know how difficult it was? I am just trying to make sure I don’t do the conversion and have a car that is not street-legal. Does the inspector actually weigh the vehicle to make sure it is under the GVWR?

Thanks for any advice.

-Ken Overway, Mt. Sidney, VA

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[Cor van de Water]

Ken,

If you cut the fuel tank open (which will be necessary to
use it as trunk) then it can no longer be used as fuel tank
so my impression is that if you show your tank repurposed as
trunk (with lid) and without fuel or fuel line then that should
be acceptable, since it no longer is a fuel tank.
They appear not concerned about the original fuel tank itself
but about people finding a sneaky way to store fuel and just
claim the vehicle to be converted while it is not.
That is why it has "the fuel tank removed and not replaced"
ie it has not a hidden tank in a different place and also the
original fuel tank cannot be used as fuel tank.

Switch in fuel filler door: since that is often the most
convenient place to put your charging plug, it is relatively
simple to add a switch that is operated by the fuel door and
will avoid the high voltage from being connected to the motor.
This also avoids driving away while plugged in so there is
some sense to this law.
My EV has a separate outlet in the grille, but still it has a
little switch in it that will interrupt the 12V drive to the
main contactor coil, so the controller cannot be engaged as
soon as the flap is lifted. The flap is spring-loaded just like
the fuel filler door.

I do not think that you should worry too much about the locking
of the fuel filler cap - any emergency worker can open a wreck
to get a person out so I think he will be able to open a
locked fuel door also when the need arises. The lock is typically
a piece of plastic that is easily broken in emergency.

My impression is that the less you educate your inspector of your
EV, the fewer problems you will experience - especially if you
already put the things in place to satisfy the spirit of the law
even if it may not comply to every letter of the law, such as
the fuel tank removal.

There remains always a risk of course, but if you are creative
then I am sure you will find a way to get your EV registered,
whether by "shopping around" and going to a different DMV location
if one inspector fails your EV, or by implementing the letter if
the inspector insists, just like the guy welding a short piece of
open pipe to the rear of his EV, because in his state it was
required to have a place to stick a smog sensor into.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: [phone]
Tel: [phone]        Tel: [phone] x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Ken Overway
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 1:31 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [EVDL] questions about Virginia HB 780

Hi all,

I am about to start my first EV conversion (1997 Miata) and I found
Virginia House Bill 780 which includes some requirements for Converted
Electric Vehicles in order to pass inspection (takes effect in Oct
2012). Does anyone in VA have knowledge of this bill? I'm worried about
passing inspection and want to make sure I cross my t's and dot the i's.


Specifically:

Buried in HB 780 it states

"Such certification shall be on a form approved by the Commissioner and
the Superintendent and shall state that the inspector has verified
that..
(ii) the fuel tank has been removed and not replaced;"

I'd like to convert the tank into a storage trunk since it is located
directly behind the passenger seats. It will no longer function as a
tank and will be cleaned and painted, but it is still the same "tank".
Advice?

Also buried in the code is

"3. An externally mounted switch to open the high voltage circuit in
case of an emergency. Such switch must be located where the fuel tank
filler cap was located prior to conversion. Any cover protecting the
switch must be able to be opened from the outside of the vehicle;"

I wonder if any SPST switch will work. The ignition key already serves
to interrupt the contactor for the battery bank. I was going to just add
another switch in the gas tank flap area that interrupts the 12 V of the
key switch. I think that is what they want. Advice?

Also, like most cars, my tank lid locks down and is only accessible when
the switch is pulled from inside the car. Do I have to disable this and
make it spring-loaded?

Can someone with experience in going through a VA state inspection of a
converted electric vehicle let me know how difficult it was? I am just
trying to make sure I don't do the conversion and have a car that is not
street-legal. Does the inspector actually weigh the vehicle to make sure
it is under the GVWR?

Thanks for any advice.

-Ken Overway, Mt. Sidney, VA

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[richardriver]

I passed safety inspection last May. The gas station did not give me any problem. They just checked the same systems brakes, lights, etc.  Then I got it inspected by a DEQ official, he did not give me any problems too. all inspections were painless.
hope this help

[Martin WINLOW]

On 9 Jul 2012, at 21:31, Ken Overway wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am about to start my first EV conversion (1997 Miata) and I found Virginia House Bill 780 which includes some requirements for Converted Electric Vehicles in order to pass inspection (takes effect in Oct 2012). Does anyone in VA have knowledge of this bill? I'm worried about passing inspection and want to make sure I cross my t's and dot the i's.
>
> Specifically:
>
> Buried in HB 780 it states
>
> "Such certification shall be on a form approved by the Commissioner and the Superintendent and shall state that the inspector has verified that..
> (ii) the fuel tank has been removed and not replaced;"
>
> I’d like to convert the tank into a storage trunk since it is located directly behind the passenger seats. It will no longer function as a tank and will be cleaned and painted, but it is still the same “tank”. Advice?

Hi Ken,

You WILL be sure to rinse out the tank at least 2 times with detergent and water before cutting it open WON'T you?  We don't want you to lose your eyebrows (or anything else more important) when, otherwise, the cutter sparks ignite the petrol residue in the tank!

MW

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[Mark Grasser]

I have used a skill saw and a sawsall to cut open tanks including propane
tanks. Flushing with soap and water is good but I then fill the tank with
water and cut it when it is full. Stay on the top side of the tank and be
sure you are plugged into a GFCI. Use air tools if you have them.




Sincerely,
Mark Grasser
 


On 9 Jul 2012, at 21:31, Ken Overway wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am about to start my first EV conversion (1997 Miata) and I found
Virginia House Bill 780 which includes some requirements for Converted
Electric Vehicles in order to pass inspection (takes effect in Oct 2012).
Does anyone in VA have knowledge of this bill? I'm worried about passing
inspection and want to make sure I cross my t's and dot the i's.
>
> Specifically:
>
> Buried in HB 780 it states
>
> "Such certification shall be on a form approved by the Commissioner and
the Superintendent and shall state that the inspector has verified that..
> (ii) the fuel tank has been removed and not replaced;"
>
> I'd like to convert the tank into a storage trunk since it is located
directly behind the passenger seats. It will no longer function as a tank
and will be cleaned and painted, but it is still the same "tank". Advice?

Hi Ken,

You WILL be sure to rinse out the tank at least 2 times with detergent and
water before cutting it open WON'T you?  We don't want you to lose your
eyebrows (or anything else more important) when, otherwise, the cutter
sparks ignite the petrol residue in the tank!

MW

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[Ken Overway]

Multiple rinses were absolutely on my to do list. I like my eyebrows!

Has anyone ever "re-purposed" a gas tank before?

-Ken

> Hi Ken,
>
> You WILL be sure to rinse out the tank at least 2 times with
> detergent and water before cutting it open WON'T you? 
> We don't want you to lose your eyebrows (or anything else
> more important) when, otherwise, the cutter sparks ignite
> the petrol residue in the tank!
>
> MW
>

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[Alan Brinkman]

Ken,

In addition to lots of rinsing etc. you also need to keep the air/fuel
mixture in the tank non-flammable when you cut or weld on it. One might
think that the fuel is gone, but there are very small amounts of fuel in
porous or corroded parts of the metal, and along the seams. Some people
use dry ice in the tank which supplies carbon dioxide, non/flammable,
and I have heard of some who route the exhaust from an internal
combustion engine through the tank with the motor on, and then weld or
cut. Be careful, and double check your advice. I have never worked on a
steel gas tank. For cutting I would fill a tank with water and use a
reciprocating saw on it. Welding, be careful, the heat will bring out
any remaining fuel as a vapor and that is bad for risk of explosion or
fire.

Alan

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Ken Overway
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 9:22 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] questions about Virginia HB 780

Multiple rinses were absolutely on my to do list. I like my eyebrows!

Has anyone ever "re-purposed" a gas tank before?

-Ken

> Hi Ken,
>
> You WILL be sure to rinse out the tank at least 2 times with detergent

> and water before cutting it open WON'T you?
> We don't want you to lose your eyebrows (or anything else more
> important) when, otherwise, the cutter sparks ignite the petrol
> residue in the tank!
>
> MW
>


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[David Dymaxion]

I let air from a compressor blow into the tank to dry it as well as I could, washed it out with soap, filled the tank with argon, and used a nibbler (less likely to spark than a cut-off wheel).



________________________________
 From: Alan Brinkman <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] questions about Virginia HB 780
 
Ken,

In addition to lots of rinsing etc. you also need to keep the air/fuel
mixture in the tank non-flammable when you cut or weld on it. One might
think that the fuel is gone, but there are very small amounts of fuel in
porous or corroded parts of the metal, and along the seams. Some people
use dry ice in the tank which supplies carbon dioxide, non/flammable,
and I have heard of some who route the exhaust from an internal
combustion engine through the tank with the motor on, and then weld or
cut. Be careful, and double check your advice. I have never worked on a
steel gas tank. For cutting I would fill a tank with water and use a
reciprocating saw on it. Welding, be careful, the heat will bring out
any remaining fuel as a vapor and that is bad for risk of explosion or
fire.

Alan

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Ken Overway
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 9:22 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] questions about Virginia HB 780

Multiple rinses were absolutely on my to do list. I like my eyebrows!

Has anyone ever "re-purposed" a gas tank before?

-Ken

> Hi Ken,
>
> You WILL be sure to rinse out the tank at least 2 times with detergent

> and water before cutting it open WON'T you?
> We don't want you to lose your eyebrows (or anything else more
> important) when, otherwise, the cutter sparks ignite the petrol
> residue in the tank!
>
> MW
>


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[Jay Donnaway]

Yes, my first attempt at a battery box used the lower half of a fuel tank.  I simply washed, dried, sniffed, and cut with a sawzall.  
It turned out to be easier and better use of space to build a new box than adapt to the many curves and bumps on the bottom of a Karmann Ghia gas tank...
Here's the final assembly..
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5407/1617/1600/Oct%2015%20photo%20dump%20036.jpg
Jay
www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com


-----Original Message-----
rom: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
ehalf Of Ken Overway
ent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 9:22 AM
o: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
ubject:
Multiple rinses were absolutely on my to do list. I like my eyebrows!
Has anyone ever "re-purposed" a gas tank before?
-Ken
> Hi Ken,
 
 You WILL be sure to rinse out the tank at least 2 times with detergent
> and water before cutting it open WON'T you?
 We don't want you to lose your eyebrows (or anything else more
 important) when, otherwise, the cutter sparks ignite the petrol
 residue in the tank!
 
 MW
 


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[Martin WINLOW]

It is a <steel> tank, isn't it?  I ask as a lot of modern ones are plastic which would make cutting them a lot safer...  Just a thought!  MW


On 11 Jul 2012, at 18:14, Alan Brinkman wrote:

> Ken,
>
> In addition to lots of rinsing etc. you also need to keep the air/fuel
> mixture in the tank non-flammable when you cut or weld on it. One might
> think that the fuel is gone, but there are very small amounts of fuel in
> porous or corroded parts of the metal, and along the seams. Some people
> use dry ice in the tank which supplies carbon dioxide, non/flammable,
> and I have heard of some who route the exhaust from an internal
> combustion engine through the tank with the motor on, and then weld or
> cut. Be careful, and double check your advice. I have never worked on a
> steel gas tank. For cutting I would fill a tank with water and use a
> reciprocating saw on it. Welding, be careful, the heat will bring out
> any remaining fuel as a vapor and that is bad for risk of explosion or
> fire.
>
> Alan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Ken Overway
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 9:22 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] questions about Virginia HB 780
>
> Multiple rinses were absolutely on my to do list. I like my eyebrows!
>
> Has anyone ever "re-purposed" a gas tank before?
>
> -Ken
>
>> Hi Ken,
>>
>> You WILL be sure to rinse out the tank at least 2 times with detergent
>
>> and water before cutting it open WON'T you?
>> We don't want you to lose your eyebrows (or anything else more
>> important) when, otherwise, the cutter sparks ignite the petrol
>> residue in the tank!
>>
>> MW
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
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>
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[Charles Eldridge]

Hi Ken and all,
  In February I had my 98 converted Golf EV licensed and inspected.
Now it is street-legal.  I had let the donor vehicle registration
expire during the conversion, and I contacted DMV by phone to learn
what steps to take to register again.  (I'm writing this from the top
of my head, and I'll post again shortly with specifics.)  The process
involved obtaining a new title and a visit from a state agent to see
the finished work.  Once I had the title, then I could drive in to the
inspection station for a regular inspection.  I did not not need any
special waiver for the emissions part of the inspection.  The Virginia
code made that part simple.
  At the time, the registration and inspection loomed large, but that
part was actually much easier than getting a reliable controller

Charlie


On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 4:31 PM, Ken Overway <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am about to start my first EV conversion (1997 Miata) and I found Virginia House Bill 780 which includes some requirements for Converted Electric Vehicles in order to pass inspection (takes effect in Oct 2012). Does anyone in VA have knowledge of this bill? I'm worried about passing inspection and want to make sure I cross my t's and dot the i's.
>
> Specifically:
>
> Buried in HB 780 it states
>
> "Such certification shall be on a form approved by the Commissioner and the Superintendent and shall state that the inspector has verified that..
> (ii) the fuel tank has been removed and not replaced;"
>
> I’d like to convert the tank into a storage trunk since it is located directly behind the passenger seats. It will no longer function as a tank and will be cleaned and painted, but it is still the same “tank”. Advice?
>
> Also buried in the code is
>
> "3. An externally mounted switch to open the high voltage circuit in case of an emergency. Such switch must be located where the fuel tank filler cap was located prior to conversion. Any cover protecting the switch must be able to be opened from the outside of the vehicle;"
>
> I wonder if any SPST switch will work. The ignition key already serves to interrupt the contactor for the battery bank. I was going to just add another switch in the gas tank flap area that interrupts the 12 V of the key switch. I think that is what they want. Advice?
>
> Also, like most cars, my tank lid locks down and is only accessible when the switch is pulled from inside the car. Do I have to disable this and make it spring-loaded?
>
> Can someone with experience in going through a VA state inspection of a converted electric vehicle let me know how difficult it was? I am just trying to make sure I don’t do the conversion and have a car that is not street-legal. Does the inspector actually weigh the vehicle to make sure it is under the GVWR?
>
> Thanks for any advice.
>
> -Ken Overway, Mt. Sidney, VA
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
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[Charles Eldridge]

Here are a couple of the 'specifics':

DMV phone:  [phone]



1.  submit VSA 22 (application for assigned Vehicle ID Number)
 to DMV (at an office, or mail to Richmond);

  include the following:

  1a.  (old) title
  1b.  (old) bill of sale
  1c.  (??)  bill of sale for conversion work
  1d.  notarized statement of construction (signed by person who did
conversion,
    in my case another party, and notarized)
  1e.  picture of completed vehicle

  $125 inspection fee for an investigator comes out to see vehicle

2.  submit VSA 17A to DMV (go to an office) -- application for title and
 registration.  take your signed (by inspector) VSA 22

3.  safety inspection -- performed in my neighborhood


Charlie


On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 4:31 PM, Ken Overway <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am about to start my first EV conversion (1997 Miata) and I found Virginia House Bill 780 which includes some requirements for Converted Electric Vehicles in order to pass inspection (takes effect in Oct 2012). Does anyone in VA have knowledge of this bill? I'm worried about passing inspection and want to make sure I cross my t's and dot the i's.
>
> Specifically:
>
> Buried in HB 780 it states
>
> "Such certification shall be on a form approved by the Commissioner and the Superintendent and shall state that the inspector has verified that..
> (ii) the fuel tank has been removed and not replaced;"
>
> I’d like to convert the tank into a storage trunk since it is located directly behind the passenger seats. It will no longer function as a tank and will be cleaned and painted, but it is still the same “tank”. Advice?
>
> Also buried in the code is
>
> "3. An externally mounted switch to open the high voltage circuit in case of an emergency. Such switch must be located where the fuel tank filler cap was located prior to conversion. Any cover protecting the switch must be able to be opened from the outside of the vehicle;"
>
> I wonder if any SPST switch will work. The ignition key already serves to interrupt the contactor for the battery bank. I was going to just add another switch in the gas tank flap area that interrupts the 12 V of the key switch. I think that is what they want. Advice?
>
> Also, like most cars, my tank lid locks down and is only accessible when the switch is pulled from inside the car. Do I have to disable this and make it spring-loaded?
>
> Can someone with experience in going through a VA state inspection of a converted electric vehicle let me know how difficult it was? I am just trying to make sure I don’t do the conversion and have a car that is not street-legal. Does the inspector actually weigh the vehicle to make sure it is under the GVWR?
>
> Thanks for any advice.
>
> -Ken Overway, Mt. Sidney, VA
>
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