"Talking back" to my boss

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"Talking back" to my boss

Seth Rothenberg
I mean POINTS, not just Slaterisms...

We had an informal Lunch and Learn last week,
so I wrote the tinyurl for the Nissan commercial
that included me...and I handed it to my boss
(division president, who knows that parts of his
business is possible because of my contribution :-).

The last thing the ad quotes me with is "What's not to like?"


So he emails me
       
"What's not to like? Missing ability to charge quickly on a long trip.
Need way to resolve the battery life and disposal problem."


I see the answer to these 3 questions as:
1a. Most trips aren't that long.   I drive 75 miles/day,
and a Leaf could do that.
1b. Give it time - 5 years at most until Level 3 charging is in.
1c. Most people would need the range rarely enough that they
would rent, Zipcar or whatever.    I have friends who have
a regular car, and when they go on vacation, they rent a minivan.


2. FUD.  I think LifePO4s are expected to last 10 years?
3. FUD.  I think they recycle about 90% of the battery?

That's "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, like the FUD you got
from MicroSoft that convinced you to use their products..." :-)

Is there a good, brief page that says the above?


(I know, I know, the best approach is to finish my EV
and offer him a test drive !-)

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Re: "Talking back" to my boss

Lock Hughes
--- On Sun, 8/15/10, Seth Rothenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 3. FUD.  I think they recycle about 90% of the battery?

RMC claims 100% recovery:
http://www.rawmaterials.com/products-services/wastes-managed/rmc-processes/

Lock



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Re: "Talking back" to my boss

Dave Hymers
I think its pretty hilarious that a "disposal problem" is referred to, when
most of the environmental impact a battery has is from mining the metals.
you don't "dispose" of something you just spent millions of dollars to mine.
Once its out of the ground its a valuable recyclable commodity.
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Re: "Talking back" to my boss

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Lock Hughes
On 8/16/2010 3:33 AM, Lock Hughes wrote:
> --- On Sun, 8/15/10, Seth Rothenberg<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> 3. FUD.  I think they recycle about 90% of the battery?
>
> RMC claims 100% recovery:
> http://www.rawmaterials.com/products-services/wastes-managed/rmc-processes/

I think the national average for lead-acid batteries is still over 90%
recycled. But for the other battery chemistries, the norm is still
"throw it out in the trash".

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: "Talking back" to my boss

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Dave Hymers
On 8/16/2010 10:23 AM, Dave Hymers wrote:
> I think its pretty hilarious that a "disposal problem" is referred to, when
> most of the environmental impact a battery has is from mining the metals.
> you don't "dispose" of something you just spent millions of dollars to mine.
> Once its out of the ground its a valuable recyclable commodity.

Yes; but juts *try* to find someone to take your dead nicads, nimh, or
lithium batteries. :-(

In constrast, they will *pay you* for the privilege of getting your old
lead-acid batteries.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: "Talking back" to my boss

Peter Gabrielsson
In reply to this post by Seth Rothenberg
Here's a good article on life cycle environmental cost of BEV using
lithium batteries.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/08/notter-20100810.html#more



On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Seth Rothenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I mean POINTS, not just Slaterisms...
>
> We had an informal Lunch and Learn last week,
> so I wrote the tinyurl for the Nissan commercial
> that included me...and I handed it to my boss
> (division president, who knows that parts of his
> business is possible because of my contribution :-).
>
> The last thing the ad quotes me with is "What's not to like?"
>
>
> So he emails me
>
> "What's not to like? Missing ability to charge quickly on a long trip.
> Need way to resolve the battery life and disposal problem."
>
>
> I see the answer to these 3 questions as:
> 1a. Most trips aren't that long.   I drive 75 miles/day,
> and a Leaf could do that.
> 1b. Give it time - 5 years at most until Level 3 charging is in.
> 1c. Most people would need the range rarely enough that they
> would rent, Zipcar or whatever.    I have friends who have
> a regular car, and when they go on vacation, they rent a minivan.
>
>
> 2. FUD.  I think LifePO4s are expected to last 10 years?
> 3. FUD.  I think they recycle about 90% of the battery?
>
> That's "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, like the FUD you got
> from MicroSoft that convinced you to use their products..." :-)
>
> Is there a good, brief page that says the above?
>
>
> (I know, I know, the best approach is to finish my EV
> and offer him a test drive !-)
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>



--
www.electric-lemon.com

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Nice reference! Re: "Talking back" to my boss

Bill Dube
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
>Here's a good article on life cycle environmental cost of BEV using
>lithium batteries.
>http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/08/notter-20100810.html#more

Very nice reference. Very detailed and substantiated study on the
environmental impact of the battery in a Li-Ion EV.

Bill D.

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Re: "Talking back" to my boss

Myles Twete
In reply to this post by Peter Gabrielsson
Interesting final conclusion: An equivalent sized ICE vehicle would need to
achieve 60mpg or better to beat BEV for cumulative energy demand (CED).

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Peter Gabrielsson
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:41 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Talking back" to my boss

Here's a good article on life cycle environmental cost of BEV using
lithium batteries.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/08/notter-20100810.html#more



On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Seth Rothenberg <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I mean POINTS, not just Slaterisms...
>
> We had an informal Lunch and Learn last week,
> so I wrote the tinyurl for the Nissan commercial
> that included me...and I handed it to my boss
> (division president, who knows that parts of his
> business is possible because of my contribution :-).
>
> The last thing the ad quotes me with is "What's not to like?"
>
>
> So he emails me
>
> "What's not to like? Missing ability to charge quickly on a long trip.
> Need way to resolve the battery life and disposal problem."
>
>
> I see the answer to these 3 questions as:
> 1a. Most trips aren't that long.   I drive 75 miles/day,
> and a Leaf could do that.
> 1b. Give it time - 5 years at most until Level 3 charging is in.
> 1c. Most people would need the range rarely enough that they
> would rent, Zipcar or whatever.    I have friends who have
> a regular car, and when they go on vacation, they rent a minivan.
>
>
> 2. FUD.  I think LifePO4s are expected to last 10 years?
> 3. FUD.  I think they recycle about 90% of the battery?
>
> That's "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, like the FUD you got
> from MicroSoft that convinced you to use their products..." :-)
>
> Is there a good, brief page that says the above?
>
>
> (I know, I know, the best approach is to finish my EV
> and offer him a test drive !-)
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
www.electric-lemon.com

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Re: "Talking back" to my boss

Morgan LaMoore
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
Almost all batteries of other chemistries are currently very small.

I doubt many companies would recycle lead batteries if they were only
getting 18650 up to D cells.

Similarly, if/when large quantities of EVs use large-format Lithium
cells, economics of scale will encourage their recycling.

-Morgan LaMoore

On 8/16/10, Lee Hart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8/16/2010 10:23 AM, Dave Hymers wrote:
>> I think its pretty hilarious that a "disposal problem" is referred to,
>> when
>> most of the environmental impact a battery has is from mining the metals.
>> you don't "dispose" of something you just spent millions of dollars to
>> mine.
>> Once its out of the ground its a valuable recyclable commodity.
>
> Yes; but juts *try* to find someone to take your dead nicads, nimh, or
> lithium batteries. :-(
>
> In constrast, they will *pay you* for the privilege of getting your old
> lead-acid batteries.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Re: "Talking back" to my boss

corbin dunn
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
> On 8/16/2010 10:23 AM, Dave Hymers wrote:
>> I think its pretty hilarious that a "disposal problem" is referred to, when
>> most of the environmental impact a battery has is from mining the metals.
>> you don't "dispose" of something you just spent millions of dollars to mine.
>> Once its out of the ground its a valuable recyclable commodity.
>
> Yes; but juts *try* to find someone to take your dead nicads, nimh, or
> lithium batteries. :-(

It's quite easy, depending on where you are. My work (apple) has a battery box recycle area that has a separate section for each kind.  
Granted, they expect them to be small...

corbin


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Re: "Talking back" to my boss

Robert Johnston
On 16/08/2010 4:40 PM, corbin dunn wrote:
>> On 8/16/2010 10:23 AM, Dave Hymers wrote:
>> Yes; but juts *try* to find someone to take your dead nicads, nimh,
>> or lithium batteries. :-(
>
> It's quite easy, depending on where you are. My work (apple) has a
> battery box recycle area that has a separate section for each kind.
> Granted, they expect them to be small...

I wonder how they'd feel about 16,000 cells suddenly being dropped off... :)

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Re: "Talking back" to my boss

evan foss
On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 7:14 PM, Robert Johnston <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 16/08/2010 4:40 PM, corbin dunn wrote:
>>> On 8/16/2010 10:23 AM, Dave Hymers wrote:
>>> Yes; but juts *try* to find someone to take your dead nicads, nimh,
>>> or lithium batteries. :-(
>>
>> It's quite easy, depending on where you are. My work (apple) has a
>> battery box recycle area that has a separate section for each kind.
>> Granted, they expect them to be small...
>
> I wonder how they'd feel about 16,000 cells suddenly being dropped off... :)

That sounds like youtube video fodder.

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Re: "Talking back" to my boss

Rush Dougherty
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
All Lowes stores should have a bin that you can use to dispose of any
chemistry of battery.

Rush Dougherty
www.TEVA2.com
Tucson AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Talking back" to my boss


> On 8/16/2010 10:23 AM, Dave Hymers wrote:
>> I think its pretty hilarious that a "disposal problem" is referred to,
>> when
>> most of the environmental impact a battery has is from mining the metals.
>> you don't "dispose" of something you just spent millions of dollars to
>> mine.
>> Once its out of the ground its a valuable recyclable commodity.
>
> Yes; but juts *try* to find someone to take your dead nicads, nimh, or
> lithium batteries. :-(
>
> In constrast, they will *pay you* for the privilege of getting your old
> lead-acid batteries.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>

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Re: "Talking back" to my boss

damon henry
In reply to this post by Robert Johnston

My local waste transfer station has pretty substatial recycling including different kinds of batteries.  A few years back I had some dead Saft STM's to get rid of.  These were 6v 100ah flooded Nicad  modules.  I was concerned that they get recycled correctly, so I wrote Nicad on them with a big fat sharpie and drove them down to the transfer station.  I found someone that was working there and showed them the batteries and asked if they could take them.  They said just put them with the other NiCads which were, of course, a bunch of tool batteries as well as AAA rechargeables etc...  I figured that was easy enough.  A few months later, I had a few more bad ones to get rid of, so I headed back down to the transfer station.  I started to unload them just like last time, but this time a worker came running over and told me I couldn't leave them there.  He stated that someone else had dropped off some batteries like these a few months ago (me of course) and that it cost him mone!
 y to try to get rid of them.  I have been using flooded Nicads for close to 10 years now.  I have a bunch of dead cells that I am just storing for now.  I do have information of how to recycle them properly, but it will cost me money to get rid of them, and the logistics are not simple.  So for now I hang onto them all.  When I no longer use these types of batteries, I will take care of them all at once.  Not an expense or hassle I am looking forward to, but I will not throw them into a landfill or leave them someplace where I think there is a chance they will end up in a landfill.  I would be surprised if properly disposing of large format lithiums is not as big of hassle for the forseeable future.  
 
damon
 

> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:14:42 -0600
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Talking back" to my boss
>
> On 16/08/2010 4:40 PM, corbin dunn wrote:
> >> On 8/16/2010 10:23 AM, Dave Hymers wrote:
> >> Yes; but juts *try* to find someone to take your dead nicads, nimh,
> >> or lithium batteries. :-(
> >
> > It's quite easy, depending on where you are. My work (apple) has a
> > battery box recycle area that has a separate section for each kind.
> > Granted, they expect them to be small...
>
> I wonder how they'd feel about 16,000 cells suddenly being dropped off... :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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Re: "Talking back" to my boss

Evan Tuer
On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 4:01 PM, damon henry <[hidden email]> wrote:



>  He stated that someone else had dropped off some batteries like these a
> few months ago (me of course) and that it cost him money to try to get rid
> of them.  I have been using flooded Nicads for close to 10 years now.  I
> have a bunch of dead cells that I am just storing for now.  I do have
> information of how to recycle them properly, but it will cost me money to
> get rid of them, and the logistics are not simple.


Yep, they cost about £500 a ton to get collected, last time I checked.

It's a bit of a shame because there must be far more than that value of
nickel in them, but I guess the specialised nature of them and the problem
of dealing with the cadmium drives the cost up.



>  So for now I hang onto them all.  When I no longer use these types of
> batteries, I will take care of them all at once.  Not an expense or hassle I
> am looking forward to, but I will not throw them into a landfill or leave
> them someplace where I think there is a chance they will end up in a
> landfill.  I would be surprised if properly disposing of large format
> lithiums is not as big of hassle for the forseeable future.
>

I think it may be easier.  Large format cells should go through the same
process as a laptop battery, and there's plenty of those about.
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Re: "Talking back" to my boss

joe-22
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
Here in Oregon, there is a company in Salem that takes all types of old
batteries for recycling. I can't remember the name of it right now - but a
brother of a former employee of mine works there, and I give him all my old
AA, AAA, C, D, and 9V's.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [hidden email]


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Talking back" to my boss


> On 8/16/2010 10:23 AM, Dave Hymers wrote:
>> I think its pretty hilarious that a "disposal problem" is referred to,
>> when
>> most of the environmental impact a battery has is from mining the metals.
>> you don't "dispose" of something you just spent millions of dollars to
>> mine.
>> Once its out of the ground its a valuable recyclable commodity.
>
> Yes; but juts *try* to find someone to take your dead nicads, nimh, or
> lithium batteries. :-(
>
> In constrast, they will *pay you* for the privilege of getting your old
> lead-acid batteries.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Re: "Talking back" to my boss

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by damon henry
On 17 Aug 2010 at 15:01, damon henry wrote:

> A few years back I had some dead Saft STM's to get rid of ... flooded
> Nicad  modules... a worker came running over and told me ... it cost
> him money to try to get rid of them.

Did you try contacting Saft?  Last I heard, they would rebuild any NiCd
battery they had sold (in this case, probably better than new).

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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