test///delete

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
20 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

test///delete

Tim Humphrey


tickle
tickle



Please ignore my test tickles. ;-)


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

.

brucedp5
This post was updated on .
CONTENTS DELETED
The author has deleted this message.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Adventures

Willie2
MAYBE someone here will find this interesting:
http://www.austinfarm.org/homegrown/tripreport.html

Trip report to Wisconsin added to the report on the trip to Wayne's.

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Adventures

Mike Nickerson
Hi Willie,

Fascinating story about traveling long distances in an electric vehicle.  At
least, the Tesla makes it possible, but it still has its issues for
traveling across the country (or parts of it).

I have a couple of questions:

  -  A couple of time, you left fairly high-powered chargers without a full
charge, but with enough to make it to the next charging location.  I'm just
curious why you did that.  I think I would have a hard time leaving a
charger without more buffer than that.

  -  What did it take to get a towing hitch on the Tesla?  I think that is
fairly unusual.  They obviously have the power to pull a trailer, but it
clearly affected your range also.  It looks like you went from around 300+
Wh/mile to around 500 Wh/mile.

You're definitely pushing the envelope!

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Willie2
> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 7:20 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] Adventures
>
> MAYBE someone here will find this interesting:
> http://www.austinfarm.org/homegrown/tripreport.html
>
> Trip report to Wisconsin added to the report on the trip to Wayne's.
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: EVLN: £15k She's electric and has real girl power, Zoe date

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by brucedp5
The Zoe looks like a really nice EV.  Pity they've burdened her with a
"battering battery." Forget to pay your battery lease bill and Renault will
remotely make it impossible to charge the battery.  

I've long been a proponent of battery leasing for EVs.  I've seen enough "EV
for sale, needs batteries" ads to realize that anything that insulates an EV
owner from battery replacement sticker shock is probably a good thing.  

However, I don't think this is the right way to go about it.

I suppose I'm just a crank : I no longer use certain famous computer
operating systems because they make me agree to let the OS's authors change
whatever they want, whenever they want, wherever I am.  I prefer an OS I'm
in full control of.   Same with my EV.

If the Renault battery leasing scheme works for you, great.  But if I were
living in Europe, this "we don't trust you, so we're building coercion into
the car" approach would be an excellent reason for me to buy a Mitsu or
Nissan EV instead.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: EVLN: £15k She's electric and has real girl power, Zoe date

Martin WINLOW
Hi David,

Yes, it is a nice looking car... modern but not so whacky that its design would put people off.  I have had a close look at one in a dealer and even got them to work out an HP deal but the battery lease thing is a real deal breaker for me.  I am not (and never have been) one to buy a new car, keep it for a few years and then trade it in for a new one.  I guess this paradigm must suit lots of other people though as it appears it is this has made the world's motor industry the colossus that it is.

I think they did it this way to be able to get some insurance on their batteries in case they don't last as long as their engineers are saying they will.  Understandable, I suppose.

The Zoe has a fabulously practical boot area (particularly so with the back seats down) - very capacious and lots of electric do-dads to keep the geek in us all happy.  It felt a bit more solid than my Ion (i-Miev) does but not so compared with the Leaf (typically for a Renault Vs a modern Nissan).

One thing the article at the start of this thread brought to my attention that I had not realised before is that you can't charge the Zoe from a standard household socket - even our 230/240V ones.  This is a pretty serious flaw, IMO.  Whilst there are lots of public chargers out there (in the cities, at least) the prospect that if you want to drive to a friend/relative for a visit, particularly overnight, that they'll have to have a proper EVSE installed for you to get any charge whilst you are there is a very short-sighted view point.

And it looks like car buyers agree as their sales have not been spectacular.  Renault have already brought in a new lower battery rental rate for very low mileage users - £50/month for annual mileage of about 4k, IIRC (nothing about this on their official site yet).  The question of what you do if you wan to sell privately is a difficult one.  Looking at thei s thread... http://myrenaultzoe.com/index.php/topic/battery-lease-end-of-lease-term/ ... it seems to me that it would be nigh-on impossible to sell a used ZE vehicle privately so you are a bit stuck with Renault once you take the plunge... for life!

Renault either need to offer a battery lease-free option or cap the battery lease to 4 years or so if they are to make a success of it.  They'll have to do *something* though because their future is riding on the ZE range.  With the Fluence already gone, they really need to pull something game-changing out of the bag... and soon.

MW


On 8 Feb 2014, at 06:19, EVDL Administrator wrote:

> The Zoe looks like a really nice EV.  Pity they've burdened her with a
> "battering battery." Forget to pay your battery lease bill and Renault will
> remotely make it impossible to charge the battery.  
>
> I've long been a proponent of battery leasing for EVs.  I've seen enough "EV
> for sale, needs batteries" ads to realize that anything that insulates an EV
> owner from battery replacement sticker shock is probably a good thing.  
>
> However, I don't think this is the right way to go about it.
>
> I suppose I'm just a crank : I no longer use certain famous computer
> operating systems because they make me agree to let the OS's authors change
> whatever they want, whenever they want, wherever I am.  I prefer an OS I'm
> in full control of.   Same with my EV.
>
> If the Renault battery leasing scheme works for you, great.  But if I were
> living in Europe, this "we don't trust you, so we're building coercion into
> the car" approach would be an excellent reason for me to buy a Mitsu or
> Nissan EV instead.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: EVLN: £15k She's electric and has real girl power, Zoe date

Matt Lacey
not being able to charge from a normal power point just means a portable
EVSE isn't supplied.

there's nothing stopping you from buying one separately
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin WINLOW" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2014 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: £15k She's electric and has real girl power, Zoe
date


Hi David,

Yes, it is a nice looking car... modern but not so whacky that its design
would put people off.  I have had a close look at one in a dealer and even
got them to work out an HP deal but the battery lease thing is a real deal
breaker for me.  I am not (and never have been) one to buy a new car, keep
it for a few years and then trade it in for a new one.  I guess this
paradigm must suit lots of other people though as it appears it is this has
made the world's motor industry the colossus that it is.

I think they did it this way to be able to get some insurance on their
batteries in case they don't last as long as their engineers are saying they
will.  Understandable, I suppose.

The Zoe has a fabulously practical boot area (particularly so with the back
seats down) - very capacious and lots of electric do-dads to keep the geek
in us all happy.  It felt a bit more solid than my Ion (i-Miev) does but not
so compared with the Leaf (typically for a Renault Vs a modern Nissan).

One thing the article at the start of this thread brought to my attention
that I had not realised before is that you can't charge the Zoe from a
standard household socket - even our 230/240V ones.  This is a pretty
serious flaw, IMO.  Whilst there are lots of public chargers out there (in
the cities, at least) the prospect that if you want to drive to a
friend/relative for a visit, particularly overnight, that they'll have to
have a proper EVSE installed for you to get any charge whilst you are there
is a very short-sighted view point.

And it looks like car buyers agree as their sales have not been spectacular.
Renault have already brought in a new lower battery rental rate for very low
mileage users - £50/month for annual mileage of about 4k, IIRC (nothing
about this on their official site yet).  The question of what you do if you
wan to sell privately is a difficult one.  Looking at thei s thread...
http://myrenaultzoe.com/index.php/topic/battery-lease-end-of-lease-term/ ...
it seems to me that it would be nigh-on impossible to sell a used ZE vehicle
privately so you are a bit stuck with Renault once you take the plunge...
for life!

Renault either need to offer a battery lease-free option or cap the battery
lease to 4 years or so if they are to make a success of it.  They'll have to
do *something* though because their future is riding on the ZE range.  With
the Fluence already gone, they really need to pull something game-changing
out of the bag... and soon.

MW


On 8 Feb 2014, at 06:19, EVDL Administrator wrote:

> The Zoe looks like a really nice EV.  Pity they've burdened her with a
> "battering battery." Forget to pay your battery lease bill and Renault
> will
> remotely make it impossible to charge the battery.
>
> I've long been a proponent of battery leasing for EVs.  I've seen enough
> "EV
> for sale, needs batteries" ads to realize that anything that insulates an
> EV
> owner from battery replacement sticker shock is probably a good thing.
>
> However, I don't think this is the right way to go about it.
>
> I suppose I'm just a crank : I no longer use certain famous computer
> operating systems because they make me agree to let the OS's authors
> change
> whatever they want, whenever they want, wherever I am.  I prefer an OS I'm
> in full control of.   Same with my EV.
>
> If the Renault battery leasing scheme works for you, great.  But if I were
> living in Europe, this "we don't trust you, so we're building coercion
> into
> the car" approach would be an excellent reason for me to buy a Mitsu or
> Nissan EV instead.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: EVLN: £15k She's electric and has real girl power, Zoe date

Kevin Sharpe
On 08/02/2014 11:58, "matt lacey" <[hidden email]> wrote:


>not being able to charge from a normal power point just means a portable
>EVSE isn't supplied.
>
>there's nothing stopping you from buying one separately

The ZOEs Chameleon charger has extremely low efficiency below 16A 230V
which is why Renault left out the portable EVSE. The next ZOE model year
(originally 2014 but probably now delayed) will have a second low power
charger installed in the car for domestic socket compatibility.

We ran some tests with the ZOE in the UK and managed to charge down to 6A
230V but we suspect no energy was going into the battery and gave up after
24 hours.


Kevin Sharpe | Founder & Patron | Zero Carbon World, a UK Registered
Charity #1141347


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Adventures

Willie2
In reply to this post by Mike Nickerson
On 02/07/2014 09:28 PM, Mike Nickerson wrote:
>    -  A couple of time, you left fairly high-powered chargers without a full
> charge, but with enough to make it to the next charging location.  I'm just
> curious why you did that.  I think I would have a hard time leaving a
> charger without more buffer than that.
I never intentionally left with less than a full charge if my next
charging opportunity was expected to have lesser capacity.  That is, I
never left a SuperCharger with less than a full charge unless my next
stop was another SuperCharger.  SuperChargers start cutting back at
about 50%.  They charge at 120kw (~400 mph) up to about 50% of battery
capacity and then start cutting back.  The last few kwh get to be pretty
tedious, about like normal 40 amp charging.  Using a string of well
positioned SuperChargers, minimal charge time is achieved by
SuperCharging only to 50-75%.  I did leave Arkadelphia with a marginal
charge when I got cut back to 30 amps in Arkadelphia and I expected to
see 40 amps in Texarkana.  I did leave with marginal charges when it
seemed prudent to get through big cities before heavy traffic times.

Especially compared to a Leaf, a Tesla has very good instrumentation.  
It tells you line voltage so you can see high current voltage drop and
you can lower the current demand.  While charging, you can monitor the
charge level and rate.
>
>    -  What did it take to get a towing hitch on the Tesla?  I think that is
> fairly unusual.  They obviously have the power to pull a trailer, but it
This has been available for some time:
http://torkliftcentral.com/ecohitch/tesla/ecohitch_tesla_model_s.php
The first trip I took in the Tesla (about March 2013), I hauled two
bicycles inside.  A bit inconvenient so I resolved to put a bike rack on
the back and ordered the above.  Tesla discourages installing trailer
hitches; i offered the job of installing to our Austin Tesal service
center but they declined.  They did suggest their recommended high end
body shop where they send Teslas for body work.  The body shop said "if
Tesla doesn't condone it, we won't do it".  So, I ended up having it
installed at a trailer hitch specialty shop.  TorkLift did supply very
good instruction and video.  I imagine I could have done the job
myself.  Once I got the receiver installed, I became tempted to pull
trailers.  Steve Clunn used it to haul a pretty large load of stuff from
Gary K's in San Antonio, 80-100 miles away.  This on a 2,000 pound
capacity Harbor Freight 4'x8' flat bed.
I decided I wanted the teardrop for two purposes:
1) I many times i fill the Tesla with 17 banana boxes of produce for
delivery to grocery stores and could use more capacity.  The "open to
the weather" flat bed is not suitable.
2) I would like to do more cross country Tesla travel; a pull behind
comfortable waiting room is very attractive for ~8 hour charges. The
teardrop filled this need VERY well on the way back from Wisconsin.  A
~1500 watt heater kept the trailer very comfortable even in zero
degrees.  The RV stalls always have 120vac outlets in addition to the 50
amp 240vac outlets needed for charging.  Also in the trailer, a laptop
and a wifi hotspot both 120vac powered.  Many of the photos I linked to
were uploaded while charging in RV stalls.  Without a trailer, one can
keep warm in a Tesla while charging at RV parks (I did that on the
Kansas trip), but it slows charging a bit.  Maybe 2kw out of 10kw.  The
expected lack of 120vac at J1772 stations (Nissan dealers) was a big
factor in my decision to wait in Texarkana for a Tesla charge cable (EVSE).
> clearly affected your range also.  It looks like you went from around 300+
> Wh/mile to around 500 Wh/mile.

I don't yet have a real good handle on the energy penalty of pulling the
teardrop.  It is probably more than I expected/hoped.  I can get 240-260
wh/m in warm weather.  In cold weather it is more like 300-350.  
Yesterday, I did about 320 over about 150 miles in 32-35 deg.  Pulling
the trailer, it is about 425-450 in 30-35 deg.  The 500 wh/m reported
was in just horrible conditions.  Icy snowy 10-20 deg.  So, I'm guessing
it costs about 100 wh/m.  Probably will cut range from 200-250+ to
around 150 miles.
> http://www.austinfarm.org/homegrown/tripreport.html
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: EVLN: £15k She's electric and has real girl power, Zoe date

Martin WINLOW
In reply to this post by Matt Lacey
Hmmm... the way I read the Renault site info on this, the minimum power the on-board 'Chameleon' charger requires is 7kW.  I'll have another look.  MW


On 8 Feb 2014, at 11:58, matt lacey wrote:

> not being able to charge from a normal power point just means a portable EVSE isn't supplied.
>
> there's nothing stopping you from buying one separately
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin WINLOW" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2014 5:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: £15k She's electric and has real girl power, Zoe date
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> Yes, it is a nice looking car... modern but not so whacky that its design would put people off.  I have had a close look at one in a dealer and even got them to work out an HP deal but the battery lease thing is a real deal breaker for me.  I am not (and never have been) one to buy a new car, keep it for a few years and then trade it in for a new one.  I guess this paradigm must suit lots of other people though as it appears it is this has made the world's motor industry the colossus that it is.
>
> I think they did it this way to be able to get some insurance on their batteries in case they don't last as long as their engineers are saying they will.  Understandable, I suppose.
>
> The Zoe has a fabulously practical boot area (particularly so with the back seats down) - very capacious and lots of electric do-dads to keep the geek in us all happy.  It felt a bit more solid than my Ion (i-Miev) does but not so compared with the Leaf (typically for a Renault Vs a modern Nissan).
>
> One thing the article at the start of this thread brought to my attention that I had not realised before is that you can't charge the Zoe from a standard household socket - even our 230/240V ones.  This is a pretty serious flaw, IMO.  Whilst there are lots of public chargers out there (in the cities, at least) the prospect that if you want to drive to a friend/relative for a visit, particularly overnight, that they'll have to have a proper EVSE installed for you to get any charge whilst you are there is a very short-sighted view point.
>
> And it looks like car buyers agree as their sales have not been spectacular. Renault have already brought in a new lower battery rental rate for very low mileage users - £50/month for annual mileage of about 4k, IIRC (nothing about this on their official site yet).  The question of what you do if you wan to sell privately is a difficult one.  Looking at thei s thread... http://myrenaultzoe.com/index.php/topic/battery-lease-end-of-lease-term/ ... it seems to me that it would be nigh-on impossible to sell a used ZE vehicle privately so you are a bit stuck with Renault once you take the plunge... for life!
>
> Renault either need to offer a battery lease-free option or cap the battery lease to 4 years or so if they are to make a success of it.  They'll have to do *something* though because their future is riding on the ZE range.  With the Fluence already gone, they really need to pull something game-changing out of the bag... and soon.
>
> MW
>
>
> On 8 Feb 2014, at 06:19, EVDL Administrator wrote:
>
>> The Zoe looks like a really nice EV.  Pity they've burdened her with a
>> "battering battery." Forget to pay your battery lease bill and Renault will
>> remotely make it impossible to charge the battery.
>>
>> I've long been a proponent of battery leasing for EVs.  I've seen enough "EV
>> for sale, needs batteries" ads to realize that anything that insulates an EV
>> owner from battery replacement sticker shock is probably a good thing.
>>
>> However, I don't think this is the right way to go about it.
>>
>> I suppose I'm just a crank : I no longer use certain famous computer
>> operating systems because they make me agree to let the OS's authors change
>> whatever they want, whenever they want, wherever I am.  I prefer an OS I'm
>> in full control of.   Same with my EV.
>>
>> If the Renault battery leasing scheme works for you, great.  But if I were
>> living in Europe, this "we don't trust you, so we're building coercion into
>> the car" approach would be an excellent reason for me to buy a Mitsu or
>> Nissan EV instead.
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: EVLN: £15k She's electric and has real girl power, Zoe date

Martin WINLOW
In reply to this post by Matt Lacey
Nope... it is as I thought (from the Renault web site...  http://www.renault.co.uk/cars/electric-vehicles/zoe/zoe/zecharging/plugsandsockets/index.jsp )...

"The 3-Pin domestic plug tends to charge vehicles in over 10 hours, but this method is not supported on the ZOE."

 Daft!

MW


On 8 Feb 2014, at 11:58, matt lacey wrote:

> not being able to charge from a normal power point just means a portable EVSE isn't supplied.
>
> there's nothing stopping you from buying one separately
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin WINLOW" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2014 5:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: £15k She's electric and has real girl power, Zoe date
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> Yes, it is a nice looking car... modern but not so whacky that its design would put people off.  I have had a close look at one in a dealer and even got them to work out an HP deal but the battery lease thing is a real deal breaker for me.  I am not (and never have been) one to buy a new car, keep it for a few years and then trade it in for a new one.  I guess this paradigm must suit lots of other people though as it appears it is this has made the world's motor industry the colossus that it is.
>
> I think they did it this way to be able to get some insurance on their batteries in case they don't last as long as their engineers are saying they will.  Understandable, I suppose.
>
> The Zoe has a fabulously practical boot area (particularly so with the back seats down) - very capacious and lots of electric do-dads to keep the geek in us all happy.  It felt a bit more solid than my Ion (i-Miev) does but not so compared with the Leaf (typically for a Renault Vs a modern Nissan).
>
> One thing the article at the start of this thread brought to my attention that I had not realised before is that you can't charge the Zoe from a standard household socket - even our 230/240V ones.  This is a pretty serious flaw, IMO.  Whilst there are lots of public chargers out there (in the cities, at least) the prospect that if you want to drive to a friend/relative for a visit, particularly overnight, that they'll have to have a proper EVSE installed for you to get any charge whilst you are there is a very short-sighted view point.
>
> And it looks like car buyers agree as their sales have not been spectacular. Renault have already brought in a new lower battery rental rate for very low mileage users - £50/month for annual mileage of about 4k, IIRC (nothing about this on their official site yet).  The question of what you do if you wan to sell privately is a difficult one.  Looking at thei s thread... http://myrenaultzoe.com/index.php/topic/battery-lease-end-of-lease-term/ ... it seems to me that it would be nigh-on impossible to sell a used ZE vehicle privately so you are a bit stuck with Renault once you take the plunge... for life!
>
> Renault either need to offer a battery lease-free option or cap the battery lease to 4 years or so if they are to make a success of it.  They'll have to do *something* though because their future is riding on the ZE range.  With the Fluence already gone, they really need to pull something game-changing out of the bag... and soon.
>
> MW
>
>
> On 8 Feb 2014, at 06:19, EVDL Administrator wrote:
>
>> The Zoe looks like a really nice EV.  Pity they've burdened her with a
>> "battering battery." Forget to pay your battery lease bill and Renault will
>> remotely make it impossible to charge the battery.
>>
>> I've long been a proponent of battery leasing for EVs.  I've seen enough "EV
>> for sale, needs batteries" ads to realize that anything that insulates an EV
>> owner from battery replacement sticker shock is probably a good thing.
>>
>> However, I don't think this is the right way to go about it.
>>
>> I suppose I'm just a crank : I no longer use certain famous computer
>> operating systems because they make me agree to let the OS's authors change
>> whatever they want, whenever they want, wherever I am.  I prefer an OS I'm
>> in full control of.   Same with my EV.
>>
>> If the Renault battery leasing scheme works for you, great.  But if I were
>> living in Europe, this "we don't trust you, so we're building coercion into
>> the car" approach would be an excellent reason for me to buy a Mitsu or
>> Nissan EV instead.
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: EVLN: £15k She's electric and has real girl power, Zoe date

Kevin Sharpe
In reply to this post by Martin WINLOW
On 08/02/2014 13:43, "Martin WINLOW" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Hmmm... the way I read the Renault site info on this, the minimum power
>the on-board 'Chameleon' charger requires is 7kW.  I'll have another
>look.  MW

Renault discuss a 16A 3kW Œwall box¹ on their UK website;

http://www.renault.co.uk/cars/electric-vehicles/zoe/zoe/zecharging/charging
network/


You can also find various references to the charging issue and solution on
the web;

http://www.motornature.com/2013/09/the-renault-zoe-will-plug-into-a-convent
ional-wall-socket-with-a-new-smaller-charger/


Kevin Sharpe | Founder & Patron | Zero Carbon World, a UK Registered
Charity #1141347


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: EVLN: £15k She's electric and has real girl power, Zoe date

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Martin WINLOW
On 8 Feb 2014 at 9:35, Martin WINLOW wrote:

>  the battery lease thing is a real deal breaker for me.

You (we) could hope that an aftermarket supplier grabs the opportunity,
supplying drop-in, long-life LiFePO4 batteries for the "orphans" whose
batteries have been whisked away by Renault.

I'm thinking of the cut-price generic Chinese-made aftermarket batteries for
laptops and netbooks, the ones offered by the thousands on Amazon and Ebay.  
I can see it now, Anker brand spare batteries for Zoe and Leaf.  "So cheap
you can afford to buy a spare!"

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Adventures

Paul Wujek-2
In reply to this post by Willie2

On 14-02-08 08:12 AM, Willie2 wrote:
> They charge at 120kw (~400 mph)
That's about the fastest charger I've ever heard of, usually they are at
0 mph :-)
--
*Paul Wujek* <http://goo.gl/3jnMdX>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140208/8c791971/attachment.htm>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Adventures

David Nelson-5
LOL. It took me a moment then realized it is actually 400miles of range per
hour so maybe we need to use the units as 400mrph. It sure would make
sense. I charge my Gizmo at about 6mrph at the slow rate and about 22mrph
at the high rate.


On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 2:15 AM, Paul Wujek <[hidden email]> wrote:



On 14-02-08 08:12 AM, Willie2 wrote:


> They charge at 120kw (~400 mph)
>
>
That's about the fastest charger I've ever heard of, usually they are at 0
mph :-)

--

*Paul Wujek* <http://goo.gl/3jnMdX>

-------------- next part --------------

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...

URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/
attachments/20140208/8c791971/attachment.htm>

_______________________________________________

UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub

http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org

For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
group/NEDRA)





--
David D. Nelson
Sent from MetroMail Beta
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140208/50396306/attachment.htm>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: EVLN: £15k She's electric and has real girl power, Zoe date

Martin WINLOW
In reply to this post by Kevin Sharpe
Hi Kevin,

The second part of your reply is interesting (the first bit is too, but does not solve the question of how to get a charge at your distant relly (relative) when they have no EVSE nor inclination to get one).

The device in the picture on the renault.co.uk web page appears to be near-identical to the one that comes *as standard* with the Mitsubishi i-Miev (and Ion and C-Zero). This should not be a surprise (the identical-ness, not that it's standard equipment) as both the Mennekes socket used by the Zoe and the J1772 socket used on the i-Miev both conform to the same IEC 62196 standard - but use different plugs. These cables with 'bricks' can be bought on ebay for around £300.  So not a big issue to overcome if the battery lease is acceptable.

There is even someone in the Czech Republic selling a cable *without a brick* that will do the same.  In fact it has all its electronics inside the J1772 plug (no mennekes version yet, I gather) which allows the user to program the amount of current flow - from 6 to 32A (depending on which cable you get - 16/32A).  This would suit me as I have my standard cable plugged into a weather-proof socket which incorporates a timer on a sort of semi-permenant basis.  This means I don't have to get the cable/brick out of the boot every time I want to plug in nor do I have to stow it all away again before I set off.  

There are only 2 issues with the ebay cable;

1/ You might have to set the current draw each time you use it... I think the i-Miev draws 10A max on a 230/240V supply so this shouldn't be an issue as the cable resets to its highest level each time it is disconnected from the mains and

2/ the 16A version costs US$600 (down from $680)!  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/161201929348?item=161201929348&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123&vxp=mtr

MW

On 8 Feb 2014, at 14:59, Kevin Sharpe wrote:

> On 08/02/2014 13:43, "Martin WINLOW" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hmmm... the way I read the Renault site info on this, the minimum power
>> the on-board 'Chameleon' charger requires is 7kW.  I'll have another
>> look.  MW
>
> Renault discuss a 16A 3kW Œwall box¹ on their UK website;
>
> http://www.renault.co.uk/cars/electric-vehicles/zoe/zoe/zecharging/charging
> network/
>
>
> You can also find various references to the charging issue and solution on
> the web;
>
> http://www.motornature.com/2013/09/the-renault-zoe-will-plug-into-a-convent
> ional-wall-socket-with-a-new-smaller-charger/
>
>
> Kevin Sharpe | Founder & Patron | Zero Carbon World, a UK Registered
> Charity #1141347
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: EVLN: £15k She's electric and has real girl power, Zoe date

Rick Beebe
In reply to this post by Martin WINLOW
On 02/08/2014 04:35 AM, Martin WINLOW wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> Yes, it is a nice looking car... modern but not so whacky that its
> design would put people off.  I have had a close look at one in a
> dealer and even got them to work out an HP deal but the battery lease
> thing is a real deal breaker for me.  I am not (and never have been)
> one to buy a new car, keep it for a few years and then trade it in
> for a new one.  I guess this paradigm must suit lots of other people
> though as it appears it is this has made the world's motor industry
> the colossus that it is.

I just picked up a Smart ED (Electric Drive) and elected to use their
"Battery Assurance" plan. Basically, I'm renting the battery for $80/mo.
I'm not particularly paranoid about batteries but this really does
remove all the worry. Any problems for the next 10 years and they fix or
replace the battery. The only odd thing is having to send 2 checks every
month. One for the car and one for the battery.

As for holding cars for a long time...after a series of amazingly
inexpensive and tragically unreliable used cars I finally got a real job
and bought my first new car. I kept it for 12 years, the next one for 10
and then 10 for the next.

But I find a different trend has developed. In 2006 I bought a Mercury
Mariner (aka Ford Escape) hybrid. It was their first crack at a hybrid
and it was barely one. I think they were nervous about creating a
different driver experience. It got okay gas mileage but it was hard
getting it in EV mode. Its biggest advantage was shutting off the engine
at stop lights. Four years go by and Ford has made substantial
improvements to the 'hybridness' of the Escape. AND Navtek has stopped
releasing map updates to the nav system in the one we have. AND the
Mariner really held its value. So we traded it in on a 2010 Ford Escape
hybrid.

It was a much better hybrid. It fought hard to go electric and stay
electric at any speed under 48mph. I got an extra hundred miles out of
every tank of gas. The Nav system was much improved too and the vehicle
was more comfortable. Even so, I still cringed every time gas poked over
$4/gal.

Three years go by and now I'm also strongly bit by the EV bug. I have
9.3kw of solar panels on the roof. I go to EAA meetings and get rides in
EVs. I bought a Miata to convert to an EV (hasn't happened yet). Ford
finally releases a long-promised plug-in hybrid, the C-Max Energi. They
also have their Fusion EV but range anxiety and price keeps it off my
list. So last March I traded the Escape for an Energi.

The car is great. 25 miles of electric range (my daily commute is 17) at
up to 80mph. No range anxiety. 41mpg when the gas engine finally does
come on. But I've also noticed my trend. While I generally want to keep
cars for a long time, technology is changing so fast--in ways I
like--that I can see that 3 year ownership is where I am right now. So
for the first time in my life I leased a car. 39 months. It was more
than $100/mo less than if I'd bought it so cash flow is improved. And
maybe the 2016 Energi will go 50 miles on a charge and massage my back
when I drive. (In a step backwards, the nav system sucks.)

Winter is here and the EV range on the Energi is now about 11 miles
instead of 25. And the car insists on running the gas engine to warm
things up. All understandable but I'm burning gas every day and it
annoys me. I went to a meeting of the Westport Electric Car Club held at
the local Smart dealer. I found out they're practically giving away the
Smarts. A 3 year lease was $17/mo. Plus $80 for the battery and a couple
for tax worked out to $99/mo. Winter range is 45 miles, summer should be
around 70. Plenty for me and no gas no matter how cold it is. And it's a
fun little car to drive. So now I've leased my second car. It's also the
only time in my life I've had two new cars in my driveway.

So like computers and phones going obsolete every couple of years I see
the same thing happening with modern cars. The Energi has been reliable
to drive but it has gone back to the dealer twice for software upgrades
(and I've done a couple myself). What happens when the manufacturer
stops supporting the code? And I think things are evolving fast enough
in the electric car world that I can't see buying an EV now and hoping
to keep it for 10 or more years. Although maybe I would if I was renting
the battery, like on the Smart.

--Rick
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: EVLN: £15k She's electric and has real girl power, Zoe date

Martin WINLOW
Hi Rick,

Thanks for taking the trouble to type all that.  Interestingly, what I get from it is your essay is that it is as good a pitch for making your own EV that I have ever heard!

The fundamental problem with your history of 'electric' cars is that until the ED you were driving hybrids.  I know that for many people, owning one, relatively short range, car is just not workable but you have been completely relying on the motor industry to come up with something that works for you *and* them... and they just aren't interested in upsetting their cash cow ie the ICE.  If you 'roll your own' you can make it do what you want.

If you are a true EVer - and there are many reasons why you might want to be one (I suffer from them all; engineering efficiency, two fingers to Big Oil, improving international security, saving our armed forces from unnecessary wars (and our economies from the cost), a peaceful driving experience, reducing my driving costs, improving the local environment and, yes, 'saving the planet' - yay!) - driving a hybrid just isn't good enough. Sure, I have suffered for my 'art'!  I can understand that others might not want to, especially if you have others still who rely on you for reliable transport ie kids etc.

I am glad the ED is so cheap for you in the US.  In Europe it is completely the opposite and despite contacting 3 Smart dealers recently when I was considering buying one, I got absolutely no-where.  Utterly dismal - hence why I currently drive an i-miev.

Regards, MW.



On 10 Feb 2014, at 15:23, Rick Beebe wrote:

> On 02/08/2014 04:35 AM, Martin WINLOW wrote:
>> Hi David,
>>
>> Yes, it is a nice looking car... modern but not so whacky that its
>> design would put people off.  I have had a close look at one in a
>> dealer and even got them to work out an HP deal but the battery lease
>> thing is a real deal breaker for me.  I am not (and never have been)
>> one to buy a new car, keep it for a few years and then trade it in
>> for a new one.  I guess this paradigm must suit lots of other people
>> though as it appears it is this has made the world's motor industry
>> the colossus that it is.
>
> I just picked up a Smart ED (Electric Drive) and elected to use their
> "Battery Assurance" plan. Basically, I'm renting the battery for $80/mo.
> I'm not particularly paranoid about batteries but this really does
> remove all the worry. Any problems for the next 10 years and they fix or
> replace the battery. The only odd thing is having to send 2 checks every
> month. One for the car and one for the battery.
>
> As for holding cars for a long time...after a series of amazingly
> inexpensive and tragically unreliable used cars I finally got a real job
> and bought my first new car. I kept it for 12 years, the next one for 10
> and then 10 for the next.
>
> But I find a different trend has developed. In 2006 I bought a Mercury
> Mariner (aka Ford Escape) hybrid. It was their first crack at a hybrid
> and it was barely one. I think they were nervous about creating a
> different driver experience. It got okay gas mileage but it was hard
> getting it in EV mode. Its biggest advantage was shutting off the engine
> at stop lights. Four years go by and Ford has made substantial
> improvements to the 'hybridness' of the Escape. AND Navtek has stopped
> releasing map updates to the nav system in the one we have. AND the
> Mariner really held its value. So we traded it in on a 2010 Ford Escape
> hybrid.
>
> It was a much better hybrid. It fought hard to go electric and stay
> electric at any speed under 48mph. I got an extra hundred miles out of
> every tank of gas. The Nav system was much improved too and the vehicle
> was more comfortable. Even so, I still cringed every time gas poked over
> $4/gal.
>
> Three years go by and now I'm also strongly bit by the EV bug. I have
> 9.3kw of solar panels on the roof. I go to EAA meetings and get rides in
> EVs. I bought a Miata to convert to an EV (hasn't happened yet). Ford
> finally releases a long-promised plug-in hybrid, the C-Max Energi. They
> also have their Fusion EV but range anxiety and price keeps it off my
> list. So last March I traded the Escape for an Energi.
>
> The car is great. 25 miles of electric range (my daily commute is 17) at
> up to 80mph. No range anxiety. 41mpg when the gas engine finally does
> come on. But I've also noticed my trend. While I generally want to keep
> cars for a long time, technology is changing so fast--in ways I
> like--that I can see that 3 year ownership is where I am right now. So
> for the first time in my life I leased a car. 39 months. It was more
> than $100/mo less than if I'd bought it so cash flow is improved. And
> maybe the 2016 Energi will go 50 miles on a charge and massage my back
> when I drive. (In a step backwards, the nav system sucks.)
>
> Winter is here and the EV range on the Energi is now about 11 miles
> instead of 25. And the car insists on running the gas engine to warm
> things up. All understandable but I'm burning gas every day and it
> annoys me. I went to a meeting of the Westport Electric Car Club held at
> the local Smart dealer. I found out they're practically giving away the
> Smarts. A 3 year lease was $17/mo. Plus $80 for the battery and a couple
> for tax worked out to $99/mo. Winter range is 45 miles, summer should be
> around 70. Plenty for me and no gas no matter how cold it is. And it's a
> fun little car to drive. So now I've leased my second car. It's also the
> only time in my life I've had two new cars in my driveway.
>
> So like computers and phones going obsolete every couple of years I see
> the same thing happening with modern cars. The Energi has been reliable
> to drive but it has gone back to the dealer twice for software upgrades
> (and I've done a couple myself). What happens when the manufacturer
> stops supporting the code? And I think things are evolving fast enough
> in the electric car world that I can't see buying an EV now and hoping
> to keep it for 10 or more years. Although maybe I would if I was renting
> the battery, like on the Smart.
>
> --Rick
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: EVLN: £15k She's electric and has real girl power, Zoe date

Rick Beebe
You're welcome. I do understand how I'm adding to the coffers of the
motor industry.

I didn't mention that I have tended to have one new car as the daily
commuter and then some older ones for other uses. I have a 1997 Mazda
Miata for fun--although that will be sold this Spring. And a 1998 Ford
Ranger that was converted to an EV in 2007 with lead-acid that I am
re-converting to liFEpo4.

--Rick

On 02/11/2014 04:44 AM, Martin WINLOW wrote:

> Hi Rick,
>
> Thanks for taking the trouble to type all that.  Interestingly, what
> I get from it is your essay is that it is as good a pitch for making
> your own EV that I have ever heard!
>
> The fundamental problem with your history of 'electric' cars is that
> until the ED you were driving hybrids.  I know that for many people,
> owning one, relatively short range, car is just not workable but you
> have been completely relying on the motor industry to come up with
> something that works for you *and* them... and they just aren't
> interested in upsetting their cash cow ie the ICE.  If you 'roll your
> own' you can make it do what you want.
>
> If you are a true EVer - and there are many reasons why you might
> want to be one (I suffer from them all; engineering efficiency, two
> fingers to Big Oil, improving international security, saving our
> armed forces from unnecessary wars (and our economies from the cost),
> a peaceful driving experience, reducing my driving costs, improving
> the local environment and, yes, 'saving the planet' - yay!) - driving
> a hybrid just isn't good enough. Sure, I have suffered for my 'art'!
> I can understand that others might not want to, especially if you
> have others still who rely on you for reliable transport ie kids
> etc.
>
> I am glad the ED is so cheap for you in the US.  In Europe it is
> completely the opposite and despite contacting 3 Smart dealers
> recently when I was considering buying one, I got absolutely
> no-where.  Utterly dismal - hence why I currently drive an i-miev.
>
> Regards, MW.
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: EVLN: £15k She's electric and has real girl power, Zoe date

Ruckus
I see factory EV's and home-built EV's filling different niches.

If you commute the inner beltway, having your car break down is not an
option in 6 lanes of chaos.  Plus the commuter wants the latest in safety
and technology.  Thus the "commuter" is likely to favor the latest factory
EV over building one themselves from an older car.  Meanwhile, the
home-built EV is likely to be the 2nd or 3rd car in the driveway, a car
built "for fun" from an older platform, whether it be hot rod, custom, or
classic.

The typical future EV owner will commute in a Volt (in electric mode) while
converting an EV Camaro in the garage.

Cheers,
Marcus


On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Rick Beebe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You're welcome. I do understand how I'm adding to the coffers of the
> motor industry.
>
> I didn't mention that I have tended to have one new car as the daily
> commuter and then some older ones for other uses. I have a 1997 Mazda
> Miata for fun--although that will be sold this Spring. And a 1998 Ford
> Ranger that was converted to an EV in 2007 with lead-acid that I am
> re-converting to liFEpo4.
>
> --Rick
>
> On 02/11/2014 04:44 AM, Martin WINLOW wrote:
> > Hi Rick,
> >
> > Thanks for taking the trouble to type all that.  Interestingly, what
> > I get from it is your essay is that it is as good a pitch for making
> > your own EV that I have ever heard!
> >
> > The fundamental problem with your history of 'electric' cars is that
> > until the ED you were driving hybrids.  I know that for many people,
> > owning one, relatively short range, car is just not workable but you
> > have been completely relying on the motor industry to come up with
> > something that works for you *and* them... and they just aren't
> > interested in upsetting their cash cow ie the ICE.  If you 'roll your
> > own' you can make it do what you want.
> >
> > If you are a true EVer - and there are many reasons why you might
> > want to be one (I suffer from them all; engineering efficiency, two
> > fingers to Big Oil, improving international security, saving our
> > armed forces from unnecessary wars (and our economies from the cost),
> > a peaceful driving experience, reducing my driving costs, improving
> > the local environment and, yes, 'saving the planet' - yay!) - driving
> > a hybrid just isn't good enough. Sure, I have suffered for my 'art'!
> > I can understand that others might not want to, especially if you
> > have others still who rely on you for reliable transport ie kids
> > etc.
> >
> > I am glad the ED is so cheap for you in the US.  In Europe it is
> > completely the opposite and despite contacting 3 Smart dealers
> > recently when I was considering buying one, I got absolutely
> > no-where.  Utterly dismal - hence why I currently drive an i-miev.
> >
> > Regards, MW.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


--
Marcus Reddish
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140211/9745cf2c/attachment.htm>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)