the Tesla petition-- sign and pass around to all your car friends

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the Tesla petition-- sign and pass around to all your car friends

Pinetreeporsche


 
2013 at 6:30 PM
6:30 PM
Message starred
from Tesla Motors to you 
Sign the Petition
Show Details
        *
        *
        *
 
As you may know, Tesla is under attack from a number of car dealer associations in various states who are challenging Tesla's right to directly serve our customers at Tesla Stores and Service Centers.

Their efforts are protectionist in nature and infringe on the right of the consumer to choose how they purchase and service their vehicle.

An anonymous Tesla enthusiast created a White House petition to allow direct sales of cars to consumers in all states. We want to thank the tens of thousands of fans who have voiced their support and have already signed the petition.

We want this petition to succeed. For that to happen, the petition needs 64,000 more signatures by next Friday, July 5, 2013.

Please act now and take a moment to register, sign and forward the petition today!



   
  Tesla Motors | 3500 Deer Creek Road | Palo Alto | CA 94027 
privacy policy | unsubscribe    
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Re: the Tesla petition-- sign and pass around to all your car friends

brucedp5
[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Tesla-lawyers-pushing-to-sell-directly-to-consumers-video-tp4663916.html
Which I posted last night has:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57591244-76/white-house-petition-backs-direct-sales-of-tesla-cars/
White House petition backs direct sales of Tesla cars
by Dara Kerr  June 26, 2013 ... A Tesla fan creates petition asking the
White House to get the federal government to stop states from requiring
that cars be sold only by third-party dealers ...
]


This recently posted petition (below) is not to be confused with:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Petition-White-House-to-sell-EVs-directly-in-Texas-td4662586.html#a4662588
from Apr 22, 2013 which was just for allowing Tesla's to be sold in
Texas.


I have signed the petition below and encourage everyone to also sign. It
can only improve the selling of plugins, thus is for the betterment of
the public to allow the public to by-pass the old-school dealerships (if
needed), allowing the public to obtain what they want (Democracy in
action).


. ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(= Get Amp'd
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
Electric Vehicle List News
brucedp.150m.com
*Originator of the above ASCII art
% Renewable Energy for your Electric Vehicle %
(Near Silicon Valley, south of SF, CA USA)




-
[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-negative-contactor-heating-up-and-BMS-analogue-control-tp4663897p4663917.html
]
Re: [EVDL]  dealer network and selling EV's
On Fri, Jun 28, 2013, at 08:29 AM, Rod Hower wrote:
> There are several states trying to prevent Tesla from selling online
> without a dealer network.
> Here's a petition to allow Tesla to enter those markets
> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/allow-tesla-motors-sell-directly-consumers-all-50-states/bFN7NHQR
-

-
On Fri, Jun 28, 2013, at 03:45 PM, L. Chris Hager wrote:

>
> 2013 at 6:30 PM
> Message starred from Tesla Motors to you 
> Sign the Petition
>  
> As you may know, Tesla is under attack from a number of car dealer
> associations in various states who are challenging Tesla's right to
> directly serve our customers at Tesla Stores and Service Centers.
>
> Their efforts are protectionist in nature and infringe on the right of
> the consumer to choose how they purchase and service their vehicle.
>
> An anonymous Tesla enthusiast created a White House petition to allow
> direct sales of cars to consumers in all states. We want to thank the
> tens of thousands of fans who have voiced their support and have already
> signed the petition.
>
> We want this petition to succeed. For that to happen, the petition needs
> 64,000 more signatures by next Friday, July 5, 2013.
>
> Please act now and take a moment to register, sign and forward the
> petition today!
>
>   Tesla Motors | 3500 Deer Creek Road | Palo Alto | CA 94027 
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

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Re: the Tesla petition-- sign and pass around to all your car friends

rodhower
>thus is for the betterment of
>the public to allow the public to by-pass the old-school dealerships (if
>needed), allowing the public to obtain what they want (Democracy in
>action).

That's why I posted an additional link, to drive home the advertising.  I usually leave the radio playing classic rock in the background at work in my lab.  There are several really, REALLY annoying car dealership adds that make me think, 'I would never buy anything from these assholes'.  I'm thinking a true democracy would prefer online buying with extensive research without the influence of juvenile and archaic car salesmen. I think the Tesla model of car buying will be revolutionary!  I think it's time to shut down the annoying local dealerships and they're scandalous selling techniques. 
 

________________________________
 From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the Tesla petition-- sign and pass around to all your car friends
 

[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Tesla-lawyers-pushing-to-sell-directly-to-consumers-video-tp4663916.html
Which I posted last night has:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57591244-76/white-house-petition-backs-direct-sales-of-tesla-cars/
White House petition backs direct sales of Tesla cars
by Dara Kerr  June 26, 2013 ... A Tesla fan creates petition asking the
White House to get the federal government to stop states from requiring
that cars be sold only by third-party dealers ...
]


This recently posted petition (below) is not to be confused with:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Petition-White-House-to-sell-EVs-directly-in-Texas-td4662586.html#a4662588
from Apr 22, 2013 which was just for allowing Tesla's to be sold in
Texas.


I have signed the petition below and encourage everyone to also sign. It
can only improve the selling of plugins, thus is for the betterment of
the public to allow the public to by-pass the old-school dealerships (if
needed), allowing the public to obtain what they want (Democracy in
action).


. ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(= Get Amp'd
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
Electric Vehicle List News
brucedp.150m.com
*Originator of the above ASCII art
% Renewable Energy for your Electric Vehicle %
(Near Silicon Valley, south of SF, CA USA)




-
[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-negative-contactor-heating-up-and-BMS-analogue-control-tp4663897p4663917.html
]
Re: [EVDL]  dealer network and selling EV's
On Fri, Jun 28, 2013, at 08:29 AM, Rod Hower wrote:
> There are several states trying to prevent Tesla from selling online
> without a dealer network.
> Here's a petition to allow Tesla to enter those markets
> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/allow-tesla-motors-sell-directly-consumers-all-50-states/bFN7NHQR
-

-
On Fri, Jun 28, 2013, at 03:45 PM, L. Chris Hager wrote:

>
> 2013 at 6:30 PM
> Message starred from Tesla Motors to you 
> Sign the Petition

> As you may know, Tesla is under attack from a number of car dealer
> associations in various states who are challenging Tesla's right to
> directly serve our customers at Tesla Stores and Service Centers.
>
> Their efforts are protectionist in nature and infringe on the right of
> the consumer to choose how they purchase and service their vehicle.
>
> An anonymous Tesla enthusiast created a White House petition to allow
> direct sales of cars to consumers in all states. We want to thank the
> tens of thousands of fans who have voiced their support and have already
> signed the petition.
>
> We want this petition to succeed. For that to happen, the petition needs
> 64,000 more signatures by next Friday, July 5, 2013.
>
> Please act now and take a moment to register, sign and forward the
> petition today!
>
>   Tesla Motors | 3500 Deer Creek Road | Palo Alto | CA 94027 
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

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Re: the Tesla petition

EVDL Administrator
I have mixed feelings about this.  In fact this is a larger discussion that
might not really have a place on the EVDL as it may spill over into a
general discussion of selling all kinds of vehicles.

I think it makes a lot of sense for a low-volume specialty vehicle (and
let's face it, at least for now that's what an EV is) to be sold nationwide
by its manufacturer.  I'm probably OK with Tesla selling directly to the
customer.

But I'm not so sure I want GM, Toyota, Ford, and Chrysler doing it.  I can
just see them undercutting local dealers until they drive the dealers out of
business, then setting much higher prices for customers.  True, there would
still be competition between, say, Nissan and Mistsubishi.  But if you had
your heart set on a Nissan Leaf, you'd pay the manufacturer's list price, or
you wouldn't get your car.  

Thus I think direct vehicle sales would, in the long run, reduce competition
and increase prices - great for them, not so good for us.

Besides, if they ran all the car dealers out of business, where would guys
with lousy taste in suits get jobs?  ;-)

Maybe the answer is to allow manufacturers below some ceiling sales volume
(I dunno, pick a number) to sell directly, and maintain the status quo for
manufacturers with larger sales.  Or, dare I suggest it, allow direct sales
of EVs and not ICEVs?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: the Tesla petition

Cor van de Water
Or allow the manufacturers to choose if they sell direct or indirect?
Most any business is a mix of both - some electronics manufacturers like
to sell direct to end-customers, while others use or create a channel
that sells their products for them, in automotive terms these are the
dealers.
Why would a car manufacturer be *forced* to use a channel, while in
every other industry the manufacturer is free to choose which business
model works for him? Makes no sense to me and that is why I support
Tesla - every manufacturer can decide if he wants to carry the expense
and headache of direct customer contacts or allow a dealer to take that
off their hands and just concentrate on designing, building and shipping
cars.
Again - Tesla is breaking the mold...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email] Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 2:01 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the Tesla petition

I have mixed feelings about this.  In fact this is a larger discussion
that
might not really have a place on the EVDL as it may spill over into a
general discussion of selling all kinds of vehicles.

I think it makes a lot of sense for a low-volume specialty vehicle (and
let's face it, at least for now that's what an EV is) to be sold
nationwide
by its manufacturer.  I'm probably OK with Tesla selling directly to the

customer.

But I'm not so sure I want GM, Toyota, Ford, and Chrysler doing it.  I
can
just see them undercutting local dealers until they drive the dealers
out of
business, then setting much higher prices for customers.  True, there
would
still be competition between, say, Nissan and Mistsubishi.  But if you
had
your heart set on a Nissan Leaf, you'd pay the manufacturer's list
price, or
you wouldn't get your car.  

Thus I think direct vehicle sales would, in the long run, reduce
competition
and increase prices - great for them, not so good for us.

Besides, if they ran all the car dealers out of business, where would
guys
with lousy taste in suits get jobs?  ;-)

Maybe the answer is to allow manufacturers below some ceiling sales
volume
(I dunno, pick a number) to sell directly, and maintain the status quo
for
manufacturers with larger sales.  Or, dare I suggest it, allow direct
sales
of EVs and not ICEVs?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: the Tesla petition

Peri Hartman
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
It's interesting, also, because back until the late 70's, most dealerships
(perhaps all) were tied to one manufacturer.  I believe they were
independent, but if you associated with GM for example, you could only sell
GM vehicles.  That model broke down when Japanese cars started getting
popular and US-maker dealers either had to diversify or they would go broke.
So they diversified, to some degree anyway.

So, would Tesla's model cut down on competition?  One comparison I'm
thinking of is cell phone services.  There are only 4 major carriers in the
US.  While you can buy a lot on line or change service features on line,
they do have company-owned retail outlets and phone and plan prices are
universally set by each compnay.  That would be similar to Tesla, I think.
Do you consider that there is insufficient competition among carriers?
Would there be a consumer benefit if independent retailers could set the
plan and phone prices?

Peri Hartman


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: 29 June, 2013 2:01 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the Tesla petition

I have mixed feelings about this.  In fact this is a larger discussion that
might not really have a place on the EVDL as it may spill over into a
general discussion of selling all kinds of vehicles.

I think it makes a lot of sense for a low-volume specialty vehicle (and
let's face it, at least for now that's what an EV is) to be sold nationwide
by its manufacturer.  I'm probably OK with Tesla selling directly to the
customer.

But I'm not so sure I want GM, Toyota, Ford, and Chrysler doing it.  I can
just see them undercutting local dealers until they drive the dealers out of

business, then setting much higher prices for customers.  True, there would
still be competition between, say, Nissan and Mistsubishi.  But if you had
your heart set on a Nissan Leaf, you'd pay the manufacturer's list price, or

you wouldn't get your car.  

Thus I think direct vehicle sales would, in the long run, reduce competition

and increase prices - great for them, not so good for us.

Besides, if they ran all the car dealers out of business, where would guys
with lousy taste in suits get jobs?  ;-)

Maybe the answer is to allow manufacturers below some ceiling sales volume
(I dunno, pick a number) to sell directly, and maintain the status quo for
manufacturers with larger sales.  Or, dare I suggest it, allow direct sales
of EVs and not ICEVs?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
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For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)



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Re: Please sign the Tesla petition ...

brucedp5
This petition isn't just about Tesla. If successful, it will set a
precedent, that others can follow. By signing the petition, you are
saying you want and support a consumer's right to freedom of choice.

> So, would Tesla's model cut down on competition?
Meaning would auto-dealers lose business?
I think not. Their business would change from the fat-n-wasteful
bloated-monopoly that it is to one that is more true to what the
customer wants (imagine sales staff that actually know their product,
helpful, and not on commission?). But dealers will be needed for a long
time to provide service to cars that use fuel.

It is the auto-dealer assn monopoly that is blocking change (they do not
want to disturb the goose that lays the golden eggs).

But change is not linear, it is exponential. Blocking change is not
living in the real-world.

As a boy in the early 1960's my Dad would gas-up at a downtown station
(Silicon Valley had not disseminated all the agriculture in Santa Clara
County at that time, so downtown was still fairly sleepy). The price of
gas was ~$0.30/gal (unless the stations were cutting the price in a
gas-war: I saw as low as $0.06/gal ...) and one could still get full
service from a station at no added cost. That station owner had to stop
what he was doing in the garage, and come out to pump gas. It is likely
he was making more money on the repair work than on selling gas for
pennies.

When I got off the freedom-bird after my Vietnam era military service,
and back in the world just after the 1st oil embargo, that station had
closed, been sold, then opened as a self-serve cheapo Rotten-Robbie type
station (low prices, lousy gas quality, but very-busy). So, that owner
must have sold the business, and was doing something else, perhaps an
auto repair shop where he would not be interrupted with having to pump
gas.


If I use Peri's analogy of cell phone service, the auto-dealer assn
blocking change, would be like requiring that no cell phone nor mobile
Internet access would be allowed unless purchased through a
good-o-boy-dealer-chain (and they are not interested in providing it).

Take-away/greatly-reduce/make more expensive the freedom of getting a
cell phone, and having mobile Internet access, the public would go
ballistic/postal. That is because they already know about it, and are
already addicted to it. Not many in the public know about plugins ...
yet.

Its all about freedom of choice, that the auto-dealer assn wants to
block to keep their profits from being disturbed/changed.

Unlocking auto-dealers' death-grip will also help with the public with
access to cars using future fuels that could then be possible to be
sold. The possibilities would be an opportunity for both businesses, and
the buying public (having choices is a good thing).


{brucedp.150m.com}
...
http://www.1960sflashback.com/1960/economy.asp
...
http://www.vietvet.org/glossary.htm
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis



-
On Sat, Jun 29, 2013, at 04:48 PM, Peri Hartman wrote:

> It's interesting, also, because back until the late 70's, most
> dealerships
> (perhaps all) were tied to one manufacturer.  I believe they were
> independent, but if you associated with GM for example, you could only
> sell
> GM vehicles.  That model broke down when Japanese cars started getting
> popular and US-maker dealers either had to diversify or they would go
> broke.
> So they diversified, to some degree anyway.
>
> So, would Tesla's model cut down on competition?  One comparison I'm
> thinking of is cell phone services.  There are only 4 major carriers in
> the
> US.  While you can buy a lot on line or change service features on line,
> they do have company-owned retail outlets and phone and plan prices are
> universally set by each compnay.  That would be similar to Tesla, I
> think.
> Do you consider that there is insufficient competition among carriers?
> Would there be a consumer benefit if independent retailers could set the
> plan and phone prices?
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web

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Re: the Tesla petition

Martin WINLOW
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
Hi David,

I'm afraid, for once, your faultless logic has... a fault.

Either one subscribes to the free market economy or one does not.  You can't have one rule for one group of consumers and another for another. (I know we do in all sorts of ways anyway but lots of wrongs don't make a right, now do they?)

I respect the desire for the dealers to want to stay in business but Bruce is right - they have to play the game like the rest of us - anything else is the worst sort of hypocrisy.  Personally, I don't think that if all motor makers had to sell direct it would make any difference - if anything, vehicles would be cheaper having eliminated the middle man.  Customers have plenty of options to choose from though with so many apparently independent makes of car owned by the same multinational, things are not as 'free market' as they were.

Why the government is allowing these huge car making tie-ips to happen is beyond me. But that's politics for you ... and now we are well OT!

MW

On 29 Jun 2013, at 22:00, EVDL Administrator wrote:

> I have mixed feelings about this.  In fact this is a larger discussion that
> might not really have a place on the EVDL as it may spill over into a
> general discussion of selling all kinds of vehicles.
>
> I think it makes a lot of sense for a low-volume specialty vehicle (and
> let's face it, at least for now that's what an EV is) to be sold nationwide
> by its manufacturer.  I'm probably OK with Tesla selling directly to the
> customer.
>
> But I'm not so sure I want GM, Toyota, Ford, and Chrysler doing it.  I can
> just see them undercutting local dealers until they drive the dealers out of
> business, then setting much higher prices for customers.  True, there would
> still be competition between, say, Nissan and Mistsubishi.  But if you had
> your heart set on a Nissan Leaf, you'd pay the manufacturer's list price, or
> you wouldn't get your car.  
>
> Thus I think direct vehicle sales would, in the long run, reduce competition
> and increase prices - great for them, not so good for us.
>
> Besides, if they ran all the car dealers out of business, where would guys
> with lousy taste in suits get jobs?  ;-)
>
> Maybe the answer is to allow manufacturers below some ceiling sales volume
> (I dunno, pick a number) to sell directly, and maintain the status quo for
> manufacturers with larger sales.  Or, dare I suggest it, allow direct sales
> of EVs and not ICEVs?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator

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Re: Please sign the Tesla petition ...

robert winfield
In reply to this post by brucedp5

Several thoughts on your comments
1) I have gone by nissan dealers 2x to look at Leafs.
I was somewhat surprised that I knew way more than the salespersons and briefly considered applying for a lower paying job than I have so I
could be an EV sales rep. They were, to put it politely, very uneducated and unable to answer simple questions
2) There was a formal paper released, I think by EESI bemoaning the fact that renewables were cutting into the steady revenue stream of utilities and future prospects of further revenue decline
Like Bruce said, change can be exponential or discontinuous or go into log phase growth.






------------------------------
On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 10:55 PM EDT Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:

>This petition isn't just about Tesla. If successful, it will set a
>precedent, that others can follow. By signing the petition, you are
>saying you want and support a consumer's right to freedom of choice.
>
>> So, would Tesla's model cut down on competition?
>Meaning would auto-dealers lose business?
>I think not. Their business would change from the fat-n-wasteful
>bloated-monopoly that it is to one that is more true to what the
>customer wants (imagine sales staff that actually know their product,
>helpful, and not on commission?). But dealers will be needed for a long
>time to provide service to cars that use fuel.
>
>It is the auto-dealer assn monopoly that is blocking change (they do not
>want to disturb the goose that lays the golden eggs).
>
>But change is not linear, it is exponential. Blocking change is not
>living in the real-world.
>
>As a boy in the early 1960's my Dad would gas-up at a downtown station
>(Silicon Valley had not disseminated all the agriculture in Santa Clara
>County at that time, so downtown was still fairly sleepy). The price of
>gas was ~$0.30/gal (unless the stations were cutting the price in a
>gas-war: I saw as low as $0.06/gal ...) and one could still get full
>service from a station at no added cost. That station owner had to stop
>what he was doing in the garage, and come out to pump gas. It is likely
>he was making more money on the repair work than on selling gas for
>pennies.
>
>When I got off the freedom-bird after my Vietnam era military service,
>and back in the world just after the 1st oil embargo, that station had
>closed, been sold, then opened as a self-serve cheapo Rotten-Robbie type
>station (low prices, lousy gas quality, but very-busy). So, that owner
>must have sold the business, and was doing something else, perhaps an
>auto repair shop where he would not be interrupted with having to pump
>gas.
>
>
>If I use Peri's analogy of cell phone service, the auto-dealer assn
>blocking change, would be like requiring that no cell phone nor mobile
>Internet access would be allowed unless purchased through a
>good-o-boy-dealer-chain (and they are not interested in providing it).
>
>Take-away/greatly-reduce/make more expensive the freedom of getting a
>cell phone, and having mobile Internet access, the public would go
>ballistic/postal. That is because they already know about it, and are
>already addicted to it. Not many in the public know about plugins ...
>yet.
>
>Its all about freedom of choice, that the auto-dealer assn wants to
>block to keep their profits from being disturbed/changed.
>
>Unlocking auto-dealers' death-grip will also help with the public with
>access to cars using future fuels that could then be possible to be
>sold. The possibilities would be an opportunity for both businesses, and
>the buying public (having choices is a good thing).
>
>
>{brucedp.150m.com}
>...
>http://www.1960sflashback.com/1960/economy.asp
>...
>http://www.vietvet.org/glossary.htm
>...
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis
>
>
>
>-
>On Sat, Jun 29, 2013, at 04:48 PM, Peri Hartman wrote:
>> It's interesting, also, because back until the late 70's, most
>> dealerships
>> (perhaps all) were tied to one manufacturer.  I believe they were
>> independent, but if you associated with GM for example, you could only
>> sell
>> GM vehicles.  That model broke down when Japanese cars started getting
>> popular and US-maker dealers either had to diversify or they would go
>> broke.
>> So they diversified, to some degree anyway.
>>
>> So, would Tesla's model cut down on competition?  One comparison I'm
>> thinking of is cell phone services.  There are only 4 major carriers in
>> the
>> US.  While you can buy a lot on line or change service features on line,
>> they do have company-owned retail outlets and phone and plan prices are
>> universally set by each compnay.  That would be similar to Tesla, I
>> think.
>> Do you consider that there is insufficient competition among carriers?
>> Would there be a consumer benefit if independent retailers could set the
>> plan and phone prices?
>-
>
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Re: the Tesla petition

Peri Hartman
In reply to this post by Martin WINLOW
Except that you aren't really eliminating the middle man; you're just
shifting who he works for.  (I haven't picked sides, btw)

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Martin WINLOW
Sent: 30 June, 2013 3:35 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the Tesla petition

Hi David,

I'm afraid, for once, your faultless logic has... a fault.

Either one subscribes to the free market economy or one does not.  You can't
have one rule for one group of consumers and another for another. (I know we
do in all sorts of ways anyway but lots of wrongs don't make a right, now do
they?)

I respect the desire for the dealers to want to stay in business but Bruce
is right - they have to play the game like the rest of us - anything else is
the worst sort of hypocrisy.  Personally, I don't think that if all motor
makers had to sell direct it would make any difference - if anything,
vehicles would be cheaper having eliminated the middle man.  Customers have
plenty of options to choose from though with so many apparently independent
makes of car owned by the same multinational, things are not as 'free
market' as they were.

Why the government is allowing these huge car making tie-ips to happen is
beyond me. But that's politics for you ... and now we are well OT!

MW

On 29 Jun 2013, at 22:00, EVDL Administrator wrote:

> I have mixed feelings about this.  In fact this is a larger discussion
that
> might not really have a place on the EVDL as it may spill over into a
> general discussion of selling all kinds of vehicles.
>
> I think it makes a lot of sense for a low-volume specialty vehicle (and
> let's face it, at least for now that's what an EV is) to be sold
nationwide
> by its manufacturer.  I'm probably OK with Tesla selling directly to the
> customer.
>
> But I'm not so sure I want GM, Toyota, Ford, and Chrysler doing it.  I can

> just see them undercutting local dealers until they drive the dealers out
of
> business, then setting much higher prices for customers.  True, there
would
> still be competition between, say, Nissan and Mistsubishi.  But if you had

> your heart set on a Nissan Leaf, you'd pay the manufacturer's list price,
or
> you wouldn't get your car.  
>
> Thus I think direct vehicle sales would, in the long run, reduce
competition
> and increase prices - great for them, not so good for us.
>
> Besides, if they ran all the car dealers out of business, where would guys

> with lousy taste in suits get jobs?  ;-)
>
> Maybe the answer is to allow manufacturers below some ceiling sales volume

> (I dunno, pick a number) to sell directly, and maintain the status quo for

> manufacturers with larger sales.  Or, dare I suggest it, allow direct
sales
> of EVs and not ICEVs?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator

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Re: the Tesla petition

Peter Eckhoff
In reply to this post by Martin WINLOW
As EV converters,  we are our own mechanics and electronic technicians.  
If something breaks or goes "psst" in a cloud of smoke, we can not go to
our local mechanic or auto dealer and say "Here, fix it".  We come to
the EVDL for help in designing, building, understanding, and maintaining
our vehicles.  We are our own "Consumer Reports".

With a Tesla or any other vehicle for that matter, auto dealers, have
trained staff to help you in test driving a vehicle or providing trained
mechanics and electronic technicians to sort out car problems.  With
regard to test driving a vehicle, I like to sit in a vehicle and then
test drive it.  Are the seats comfortable or will I end up having to see
a chiropractor after a short trip?  Are there any pronounced blind
spots?  What makes this a better vehicle than all the rest?  For that
experience, I do not mind paying the salesperson a commission for his
(or her) time and efforts.  They do not work for free.  If Tesla wants
to set up Tesla only shops and pay someone an hourly wage and/or by
commission, I have no problems with that.

I think Mr. Musk is missing an opportunity in that a dealer network can
provide more opportunity for sales and service.  Nowadays, many
dealerships have more than one company franchise.  A mechanic and an
electronics technician trained over several types of vehicles is less
likely to be idle.

The other part of the picture is that the car companies can pressure a
dealer to take on excess inventory or cut deals to promote their
vehicles and I would not put it passed main stream car companies to
thwart competition if they can.   The last financial statement had Tesla
making a profit through the selling of carbon credits but losing money
on each vehicle sold:

http://www.ibtimes.com/teslas-first-ever-profit-came-thanks-selling-zero-emission-credits-competitors-it-insists-its-not

If Mr. Musk wants to sell EVs his way, I have no problem with that.
There is growing EV competition to prevent him from becoming a
monopoly.  I like to see this entrepreneur get the breaks he deserves
for taking the chances he did leading up to a 99 on a Consumer Reports
evaluation of the Model S.  I signed the petition.
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Please sign the petition allowing Tesla to get past the Auto-Dealers Assn monopoly ...

brucedp5
What Tesla is doing is only because they are being stopped from selling
and servicing their products by the Auto-dealers Assn. They are also
quite a hip / with-it company that uses many of the same methods that a
High-Tech company would use to sell products. High-Tech companies do not
sell products without also having an outlet for consumers to get to know
or obtain service on their products.

I am not sure it is understood that Tesla is working to get past the
Auto-Dealers Assn's block that Tesla 'has-to' have their approval to
sell Tesla products. Auto-Dealers Assn has set its self in place to give
a thumbs up or down that an auto company can sell their products. That
'monopoly' is what Tesla is fighting against.

It is because of the Auto-Dealers Assn's monopoly that Tesla has a
different form of getting their product known by and sold to consumers.
Once the Auto-Dealers Assn's blockage is nullified (made-moot), Tesla
can have provide sales and service to its customers without hindrance
from the Auto-Dealers Assn. monopoly.

 ...
If you have not done so, please sign the petition supporting freedom of
choice
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/allow-tesla-motors-sell-directly-consumers-all-50-states/bFN7NHQR


{brucedp.150m.com}

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Re: Please sign the petition allowing Tesla to get past the Auto-Dealers Assn monopoly ...

David Nelson-5
Well put, Bruce. If the Auto-Dealers Association were sure their way
was the best they wouldn't even be speaking up. If Tesla's method
didn't work then it will die on its own so this action by the ADA is
actually a very big acknowledgement that they think it is a great
plan. Personally, the only two new cars I have purchased would have
been much better without the dealer. They both have been overtly
dishonest and will never get my business again.



On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 1:49 PM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> What Tesla is doing is only because they are being stopped from selling
> and servicing their products by the Auto-dealers Assn. They are also
> quite a hip / with-it company that uses many of the same methods that a
> High-Tech company would use to sell products. High-Tech companies do not
> sell products without also having an outlet for consumers to get to know
> or obtain service on their products.
>
> I am not sure it is understood that Tesla is working to get past the
> Auto-Dealers Assn's block that Tesla 'has-to' have their approval to
> sell Tesla products. Auto-Dealers Assn has set its self in place to give
> a thumbs up or down that an auto company can sell their products. That
> 'monopoly' is what Tesla is fighting against.
>
> It is because of the Auto-Dealers Assn's monopoly that Tesla has a
> different form of getting their product known by and sold to consumers.
> Once the Auto-Dealers Assn's blockage is nullified (made-moot), Tesla
> can have provide sales and service to its customers without hindrance
> from the Auto-Dealers Assn. monopoly.
>
>  ...
> If you have not done so, please sign the petition supporting freedom of
> choice
> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/allow-tesla-motors-sell-directly-consumers-all-50-states/bFN7NHQR
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
> --
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>                           wherever you are
>
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Re: Please sign the petition allowing Tesla to get past the Auto-Dealers Assn monopoly ...

Chris Tromley
There are probably honest, straightforward dealers out there.
 Unfortunately I've never found one, nor has anyone I've known.  The whole
system is set up to extract the maximum dollars from each patsy, and
they'll do it with a sincere and friendly smile on their face.  They'll
outright lie or be selectively ignorant.  I've had one try to charge me
$400 for brake repairs that were covered under warranty.  If I had been a
typical car owner I would have fallen for it.  I'd love to be proven wrong,
but so far I have found no truly ethical behavior from a dealer.

Has anyone noticed that when a new dealer opens up, maybe five years later
they start expanding?  Think about what kind of profits that takes.  Are
you aware that they have a very unusual and secretive form of accounting
that applies only to auto dealers, in order to obscure their costs?  What
they claim to be "dealer cost" is an outright lie.  Has anyone here ever
bought a new car and not felt like they needed a shower afterwards?

The ADA wants to stop Tesla so they can keep their gravy train on track.
 It's as simple as that.  If they had been acting responsibly up until now,
there would be no reason to oppose Tesla.  Whatever manufacturer makes it
possible to buy a car direct, and bypass the dealer, will have a huge
advantage when I'm ready to buy my next new car.

The ADA is likely to lose this battle and their monolithic paradigm for
auto sales.  They did it to themselves.  This might be just as big an
automotive advance as the Model S.

Chris


On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 5:31 PM, David Nelson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well put, Bruce. If the Auto-Dealers Association were sure their way
> was the best they wouldn't even be speaking up. If Tesla's method
> didn't work then it will die on its own so this action by the ADA is
> actually a very big acknowledgement that they think it is a great
> plan. Personally, the only two new cars I have purchased would have
> been much better without the dealer. They both have been overtly
> dishonest and will never get my business again.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 1:49 PM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > What Tesla is doing is only because they are being stopped from selling
> > and servicing their products by the Auto-dealers Assn. They are also
> > quite a hip / with-it company that uses many of the same methods that a
> > High-Tech company would use to sell products. High-Tech companies do not
> > sell products without also having an outlet for consumers to get to know
> > or obtain service on their products.
> >
> > I am not sure it is understood that Tesla is working to get past the
> > Auto-Dealers Assn's block that Tesla 'has-to' have their approval to
> > sell Tesla products. Auto-Dealers Assn has set its self in place to give
> > a thumbs up or down that an auto company can sell their products. That
> > 'monopoly' is what Tesla is fighting against.
> >
> > It is because of the Auto-Dealers Assn's monopoly that Tesla has a
> > different form of getting their product known by and sold to consumers.
> > Once the Auto-Dealers Assn's blockage is nullified (made-moot), Tesla
> > can have provide sales and service to its customers without hindrance
> > from the Auto-Dealers Assn. monopoly.
> >
> >  ...
> > If you have not done so, please sign the petition supporting freedom of
> > choice
> >
> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/allow-tesla-motors-sell-directly-consumers-all-50-states/bFN7NHQR
> >
> >
> > {brucedp.150m.com}
> >
> > --
> > http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders
> >                           wherever you are
> >
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
>
>
>
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> http://evalbum.com/1328
> http://www.levforum.com
>
> Nokia Lumia 920 Windows Phone 8
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Re: the Tesla petition

Rick Beebe
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
On 06/29/2013 05:25 PM, Cor van de Water wrote:
> Why would a car manufacturer be *forced* to use a channel, while in
> every other industry the manufacturer is free to choose which business
> model works for him? Makes no sense to me and that is why I support
> Tesla - every manufacturer can decide if he wants to carry the expense
> and headache of direct customer contacts or allow a dealer to take that
> off their hands and just concentrate on designing, building and shipping
> cars.

Actually there are other industries where the manufacturers are
prohibited from selling direct. Usually as a result of monopolistic
pricing/practices.



On 06/30/2013 06:23 PM, Chris Tromley wrote:
> The ADA is likely to lose this battle and their monolithic paradigm for
> auto sales.  They did it to themselves.  This might be just as big an
> automotive advance as the Model S.


I'm not sure they're likely to lose this particular battle in the
courts. Auto dealers are huge contributors to the political machine. BUT
I think long-term the industry is changing.

--Rick
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Re: the Tesla petition

Ron Solberg
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
Quoting EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]>:

More on Tesla--

A first EVSE customer and at the same time, a first Tesla here at J &  
R Housing in Hills MN. A family of 4, Mom & Dad with 2 boys,  
destination California, arrived today from Quebec.  I am told that  
there about 100 more Teslas exist and  EVs get a special green license  
plate instead of the usual blue for other cars.

I understood this Tesla was equipped with only a single charger so my  
ClipperCreek CS 100 would not be called upon to supply 70 amps but I  
was surprised that at the end of about an hour of charging that heavy  
duty CS 100 cable was warm to the touch.
> I have mixed feelings about this.  In fact this is a larger discussion that
> might not really have a place on the EVDL as it may spill over into a
> general discussion of selling all kinds of vehicles.

>
> I think it makes a lot of sense for a low-volume specialty vehicle (and
> let's face it, at least for now that's what an EV is) to be sold nationwide
> by its manufacturer.  I'm probably OK with Tesla selling directly to the
> customer.
>
> But I'm not so sure I want GM, Toyota, Ford, and Chrysler doing it.  I can
> just see them undercutting local dealers until they drive the dealers out of
> business, then setting much higher prices for customers.  True, there would
> still be competition between, say, Nissan and Mistsubishi.  But if you had
> your heart set on a Nissan Leaf, you'd pay the manufacturer's list price, or
> you wouldn't get your car.
>
> Thus I think direct vehicle sales would, in the long run, reduce competition
> and increase prices - great for them, not so good for us.
>
> Besides, if they ran all the car dealers out of business, where would guys
> with lousy taste in suits get jobs?  ;-)
>
> Maybe the answer is to allow manufacturers below some ceiling sales volume
> (I dunno, pick a number) to sell directly, and maintain the status quo for
> manufacturers with larger sales.  Or, dare I suggest it, allow direct sales
> of EVs and not ICEVs?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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